Promoting Black Women’s Mental Health with Dr. Donna Baptiste
— EPISODE 80 —
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Donna Baptiste [00:00:00]
One person reviewed a chapter or two just started reading. I shared it with a member of my family who is also a professional, and they said, wait, teachers should be reading this book, to understand the experiences of Black girls in school and how to begin to shape Black girls to become confident and strong Black women and teachers of all colors and all races.
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Dr. Adia Gooden [00:00:28] Welcome to the Unconditionally Worthy Podcast. In this podcast, I will guide you on your journey to connect with the true source of your self-worth. Each week we'll discuss barriers to unconditional self-worth, the connection between self-worth and relationships, self-worth practices you can apply to your life. And how to use self-worth as a foundation for living courageously. I'm your host, Dr. Adia Gooden, a licensed clinical psychologist, dance enthusiast, and a dark chocolate lover who believes deeply that you are worthy unconditionally.
Hello and welcome to a very special episode of the Unconditionally Worthy Podcast. This is a special episode because we're doing things a little bit differently. You may not know that I co-authored a book, and this book is about Black women's mental health. It's called Promoting Black Women's Mental Health, What Practitioners Should Know and Do. It's published by Cambridge University Press, and it comes out in May 2023. So when you're listening to this episode, it should be out or very shortly out. And today I have brought on my co-author Dr. Donna Baptiste, and we're talking about the book. We're talking about our experience writing the book, why we think it's going to be impactful. And it's a really lovely episode. It's a little bit different, but I want you to listen and tune in so you can learn more about the book that we wrote, that we spent a few years writing and learn about how you might find it beneficial in your own life.
I think especially if you are a Black woman, you will certainly benefit from the book, which really helps you to name and understand some of the things that you're going through. Know what to advocate for in terms of any mental health care you're seeking. If you are a practitioner, a clinician in any way, shape or form, you will find this book helpful. And if you're somebody who has Black women in your lives and you want to understand more how to support them and pour into them, this book is going to be useful for you. So be sure to check the show notes for the links to where to find the book. You'll be able to purchase digital copies and hardback and paper copies. So we are just really excited to share it with you because we think it's a really powerful and impactful book. And so tune into the episode, listen to our process for writing the book and why we think it's going to be so helpful. And get the book and let us know what you think. Let's dive into the show.
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So I have an extra special guest with me today, and I'm super excited to welcome Dr. Donna Baptiste to the podcast. Dr. Donna Baptiste leads the Counseling Graduate Program at the Family Institute at Northwestern University. She's extremely passionate about educating and training individuals to alleviate mental and emotional suffering in people from all walks of life. As a young adult, after experiencing difficult personal losses, Dr. Baptiste received her own counseling and saw the immense value of mental health practice. She decided then to change careers from journalism to the counseling profession. Dr. Baptiste says, becoming a counselor educator has been among the most joyful and meaningful work of my life. I view these professional activities not just as a part of my job, but also as my life's mission and calling. Dr. Baptiste teaching and dedication to students for over 25 years have been honored by teaching awards and other accolades.
She also practices as an individual couple and family therapist specializing in counseling women and girls, and work with couples around relationship repair. Dr. Baptiste also works with families around child and adolescent struggles, grief and loss and parenting effectiveness. As a researcher, Dr. Baptiste has also co-sponsored studies in the US and international locations funded by the National Institutes of Mental Health. And these studies are about promoting healthy development of children and adolescents by strengthening family lives.
Dr. Baptiste studies have produced several dozen journal articles, book chapters, and she also serves as the co-author in these publications. One of the reasons I am so excited to have her here with me is because we wrote a book together and I've been honored to write with her, but we wrote a book about promoting Black women's mental health, and it's coming out this month, month of May, 2023 when you're listening to this podcast. And we wanted to be able to talk about it and share about it. And as you heard in Dr. Baptiste's bio, she is an incredible woman and professional and mental health practitioner. And so I'm so excited to have her on the podcast to talk about her wisdom and expertise related to Black women and mental health and how we pour that into our book. So welcome, welcome Donna.
Donna Baptiste [00:05:37] It's so good to be here. And may I call you Adia?
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:05:41] Yes.
Donna Baptiste [00:05:42] Yes. My co-author and friend and colleague of course,
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:05:45] Yes, we have been sort of working, doing this sort of work. It started with doing trainings for clinicians and we sort of fantasized about wanting to write a book. And then we were approached by two editors actually, and ended up choosing to go with Cambridge University Press. There was a little competition there that felt good. And we spent, I mean, I don't know at this point it's been, what, three years working on the book.
Donna Baptiste [00:06:17] Certainly about one and a half to two writing it. And then of course, producing it would take a while.
Dr. Adia Gooden[00:06:24] Yeah. And we were working on it in the thick of the pandemic, right?
Donna Baptiste [00:06:30] Yeah, I mean, I don't even know how we pulled it off, Adia, dealing with the pandemic. And it wasn't that it created extra space to write because we're educators, we're clinical practitioners.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:06:41] Right.
Donna Baptiste [00:06:42] So, but man, our glory to God that we were able to do this.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:06:48] We made it. And one of the things that I love, and this is definitely something that Donna pushed us to do, was that we collaborated with a lot of contributing authors, right? Almost all women, save Donna's son who's expert, in data and analysis, right? We partnered with them to really bring their expertise into the book, into the writing. So it was a really collaborative exercise between Donna and I, between our contributing authors, which I think speaks to the ethos of what's important when thinking about Black women and mental health and healing and thriving, right? Because it's not for anybody to do alone, it's not for practitioners to do alone and it's not for Black women to do alone. What do you think about that, Donna?
Donna Baptiste [00:07:44] I remembered some of the discussions about do this as a dyad or bring the spirit of collaborative scholarship into this book. And I'm so glad we did. I think that, and what is nice is we have professionals that are not just Black women. And so we consulted with them. Some of them took in a little bit of the lead or co-wrote with us, and I think it has made the book richer. I'm also thinking about the fact that we also did the study of Black women nationally to bring their voices to research into the book.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:08:23] Yeah. Will you talk a little bit about the study and kind of most like what we found which I think really just speaks to why this book is so important.
Donna Baptiste[00:08:33] The study is in chapter two of the book. So those of you that purchase it and it'll be easy to skip over, but don't, we're practitioners, so we have a lived experience of working with Black women and we're also Black women. We have Black women friends. I think it was important to hear from people that have either contemplated therapy or that were currently clients. And so that's what we did. We developed a national study, a survey it was approved by Northwestern University and we asked women a bunch of questions thoughts about psychotherapy. I'm going to shorten it and say therapy, but various things like how do we find a therapist? What are the barriers to finding a therapist? What are your recommendations for therapists working with Black women? What makes you look for a therapist?
And if you had to start looking for one, what are your recommendations? And boy, we learned a lot. I learned a lot. Some things were exactly what I thought they would be. Black women look at therapy and they're curious because everybody's saying, go get some therapy. Use a professional counselor. And they're curious, but they're also a little nervous about this space. It's not necessarily a natural space for us. Why? Because of the history of our fields in mental health and how we have treated people of color. And so they're coming to be told, and when they come in the first experience of therapy, Black women are saying that first initial encounter, the set of encounters that matters and how they feel, I would say cultural comfort. A sense that they are not just an object of curiosity on the part of the therapist.
That the therapist knows what they're doing. They understand the history of Black people and Black women in particular. And that those things matter to them. And it could have a decisive effect on whether they stay or whether they leave. And what is sad to me that I heard from some comments in the book is that some women, if they leave therapy experience unsatisfied, they're not coming back. And so it was important to us to hear that. So we can now say field, colleagues, mental health professionals pay attention to providing Black women with an experience that would make them see the usefulness of therapy. And that felt, Adia, even if when we leave this field, if we have done something that encourages Black women to consider therapy and we have helped our colleagues to serve them well, we would've made a lasting contribution.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:11:13] Yeah.
Donna Baptiste [00:11:14] To women, to Black women and also to our field. So that's what's so positive about that.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:11:19] I love that. And I think you're right, there are more and more messages going to Black women specifically, right? Yeah. Go to therapy. Go to therapy. Go to therapy. You need therapy. And we want to make sure, and I think one of the sort of purposes of this book is to make sure that when they get there, they have a warm reception, right? When they get there, they are met by therapists who know how to treat them in the way that they need to be treated, right? Who are culturally competent, who know and understand the context that Black women navigate every day. And I think both in terms of the fact that there are just unfortunately are not enough Black therapists who see all of the Black women or Black people who want to be seen. So there's a numbers challenge.
And two, all therapists are trained within our current paradigm, which definitely tends to, although this is adjusting, you're at the forefront of this because you're leading a program but tends to center, white western upper class, right? Like frameworks of mental health, right? And there's definitely an adjustment, but there's a need for more of an understanding around what are the unique experiences of people from various cultures and backgrounds. How does that show up in therapy? And how can therapists meet them where they're at and provide culturally sensitive care. And so that's really the purpose of this book, is to help people understand Black women and the many nuances that we experience as we navigate life so that the therapy can be grounded in the lived experiences of the clients. And so that the therapist isn't spending all the time being well, what I don't understand and what about this and that doesn't make sense and how do you under, right? There's so many things that would then put Black women in a position of feeling I need to teach you. I need to educate you. I no longer feel like this is a space for me, right? All of those dynamics can come up when there's a lack of understanding.
Donna Baptiste [00:13:30] Absolutely. Could not say it, could not express it better. You've captured it extremely well. To add to what you're saying, look, I'm a Black woman. I don't think I think I knew this, but I think it hit my soul maybe is do it. I knew it intellectually, I knew it emotionally, but it has seeped down so deep in me, this particular reality. Black women have a unique life experience in United States, many lives. There are commonalities among us, some different lives. I would say Black women around the world. We are not just Black people, we are not Black men. We are not just people of color. There is something about Black women's lives that is unique. I would say the combination of race and gender combined indivisible. You can't just see me as a Black person, I'm a Black woman. And to be walking in these two identities that been so misunderstood in Black women, I think is what makes this so important. And I got that.
Dr. Adia Gooden[00:14:36] Yeah.
Donna Baptiste [00:14:36] I got that. And so we experienced gendered racism, racist gender bias that is all in one experience and that affects us in every living place that we work and do business in the world.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:14:54] I'm really glad you pointed that out, right? Because these intersections are important and we often hear in the Black community, there's often a focus on Black men and the rights and the needs of Black men.
Donna Baptiste [00:15:04] Yes.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:15:05] And then there's often a focus on white women and the rights and the needs of white women and Black women are sort of caught in between and often expected to promote the rights of each of these groups. Like Black men, white women without concern for their own needs and their own rights.
Donna Baptiste [00:15:25] Yes.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:15:26] And I think talking about this intersection, this gendered racism, the unique experiences is really important because you can't just say, oh well let's just apply all the things we know about white women to Black women, or let's just all apply all the things we know about Black men to Black women, right?
Like we have unique experiences that need to be acknowledged. And I also appreciate you bringing up how it sort of sunk in so deeply the process of writing this book. Because I'd love to talk a little bit about how the writing of the book and the researching affected you, affected me, affected both of us, right? As we sort of this like interesting thing where because we are both Black women, we have our own identities and experiences, and then we're doing this research and then we're writing. So share a little bit about the experience of it.
Donna Baptiste [00:16:22] For me, it was not just an intellectual exercise, it was not just an exercise about other people, it was also about me. I can tell you honestly that, so you remember the part where we collected, we asked women some open-ended questions. Why do you find therapy helpful? Why is therapy not helpful? What are your recommendations to therapists? I remember reading some of their comments. I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I've lived so long. I've been so long a practitioner, but I didn't understand. And some downright got to my soul as, my goodness, I have done this. I've done this sometimes in therapy. I know my colleagues have done this. So there was a sense of an awakening for me about my practice. And that matters to me because when you come into therapy, you want to be helpful to your clients. And it just made me feel pain that there were things I would not have understood.
Some topics in the book, and I'll tell you one in particular that really I remember editing we co-wrote with a very skilled practitioner and professional that works with young people and young girls. And I remember we were writing about the adultification of Black girls. And I actually rescued a buried memory in myself of being the girl in a slightly larger body. So I probably would be considered overweight as a child, feeling misunderstood in school and being treated in a certain way in the community. I actually remembered men hitting on me as I'm walking the streets to and from school. And I remembered I was sitting my computer and for some reason, I allowed the memory to wash over me. So it rescued some of my memories even about my own life. And I started sobbing uncontrollably.
I stopped writing. I actually took a few days off because some of the experiences we were writing about, I had heard, I never realized that I was one of those. And rescuing that memory is going to be very important to me, important to me. So I can do something about the pain of it. Now, have I buried it? I don't know. Has my life been affected by it? I don't know. But I just had a feeling this deep compassion for Black girls who might experience, and there was several chapters in which I recall something about my own life reflected in what was written. And I hope that as our words might transform women or encourage them to do something about what those experiences is about, I must also do my own.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:19:05] That's really powerful. Thank you for being willing to share that experience. And I think, it makes me think about the phrase, the personal is political for Black folks. For Black women, and I think for us, right? Like this intellectual is personal, right? We can't separate ourselves, our personal experiences, our identities from the work that we're doing, from the writing we're doing, right? Both of us our therapists have been clients, right? Have had all of these experiences and I really like that we tie our own experiences in throughout the book, right? That it's not sort of this cold intellectual book or way of writing, but it's very grounded in our lived experiences, in other lived experiences. We use media references and stories and things like that to make things come to life. Because I think, part of it is if practitioners are going to help Black women, they need to get close, right? It cannot be this sort of distance far away, closed off, emotionally disconnected practice, right? It has to be connected and engaged. And our aim was to help bring that to life. Would you agree?
Donna Baptiste [00:20:30] I absolutely, I absolutely. What I hope would be one of the outcomes of the book is that maybe I should say this before I actually say this part. One of the things we struggled, because we talked about it a lot as we wrote, is not to present Black women through the lens of troubled lives. Because truth be told, when I say so, oh, always complaining about something, it's always about race and gender. To not trap women in a sense that they're broken, they need to be fixed, they need to be rescued with some therapists can have that particular sentiment and they're going with a, a sort of do good kind of attitude. There was one author that talks about Black women are all right. Meaning that we have a capacity like many other race and many other cultural groups, to transcend and experience of suffering and to make meaning of what it is we are involved in right now, it does not mean the pain does not reside there. And so it says Black women are all right. I would say most of us are. And we don't need fixing or being held together by, just good ideas. But I do believe what I hope will happen is that in our bodies and minds and souls and hearts and in our everyday experience, there are things we would encounter that will discourage us deeply as Black women.
And over a lifetime, as you live longer and in some years, those things will rear their heads and affect our mental and emotional health and our wellness. And maybe the book is and the idea that we honor that experience, that living in the United States, maybe in many other parts of the world as a Black woman has unusual kinds of difficulties. Even while it has joy and that we will honor the difficulties. And then the invitation is to knowing it's not just to know, knowing is to change and change doesn't mean the circumstances change. Change means that we find a space where we can personally transcend these things and that we would infuse our lives with the things that will keep us well. It is not lost in me that Black women at the bottom of a lot of health statistics that says the way is in which people treat us and the lives we live actually affects our health and our longevity. And that is something that matters to me. I have begun to pay attention to that in my own life. And that could be the value of psychotherapy.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:23:08] I'm so glad that you shared that because yeah, this is not a book that's about creating therapists as saviors. And it's also not a book about look at everything Black women go through. They're victims. right? And we really were intentional about the sort of integration of acknowledging the very real challenges that Black women experience. And identifying how therapy can be incredibly empowering for Black women.
Donna Baptiste [00:23:40] Yes.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:23:41] Not how therapists can save Black women from the challenging experiences. And that was just something that we really sort of there's these tensions, right? Because you want to acknowledge the truth of the challenges. You don't want to gloss over them. You don't want to fall into the trap of like oh, Black women are just strong and resilient and well, they'll be fine, right? That's not helpful. But then you also don't want to fall so deeply into the challenges that it feels well, there's no hope, because that's also not true. And that is something that we sort of navigated intentionally. So I'm really glad that you brought that up. Do you have a favorite chapter and if so, what is it? And why?
Donna Baptiste [00:24:24] Actually three stands out.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:24:25] Okay.
Donna Baptiste [00:24:26] Just for our readers to know, there are 18, or is it 17?
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:24:31]I think it's 18.
Donna Baptiste [00:24:36] 18 chapters in the book. Of course you have an introduction and a conclusion. I would say the chapter that was most revealing to me about my own life I just talked about and the chapter is Black women's girlhood the developmental experiences of Black women. That one was the one I think I probably need to spend some time with so I can understand that in myself. The one most relevant. So that's in my sort of rescuing memories and sort of making peace with them, grieving even a little bit. The one most currently relevant to my life is probably the one that is probably my favorite, the strong Black woman stereotype. And I'm calling it what it is that we have lived as Black women, that we embrace as a feminine ideal. That we live out in many places, in religious settings and in our family life.
That one changed my life. Once I understood that Black women cling to the idea of strong Black women, or you're strong Black woman, not just as a compliment and a way to live, but also on almost automatically as this is our place in the world, I understood some things I need to do to not live that stereotype and to care for myself. And that mattered to me because now I'm middle-aged, right? And I want to see my children's children. And I'm not going to do that if this particular, I would say false identity does not work its way out of me. And I realize I've lived that way for a large portion of my life. So that one, the one that got me fired up and feeling feisty was the chapter we wrote about the dating experiences of Black women. And I think that's the one I encountered in therapy a lot. So many young Black women, middle-aged, divorced Black women, or people that may have had a dissolution. I'm looking for partners. They want what everybody wants. I want to be loved, I want to love, I want to be part of a strong Black family. And the societal barriers to achieving that, that women experience as loss fired me up. And they do so because of racism and gender bias. So those are the chapters that I would think were very meaningful to me. May I ask you the same? What about you? Which ones? Which ones got to you?
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:26:58] Sure. Yeah. I mean, I would say probably two stand out. One is the sort of inner healing and thriving chapter. Because that just feels like up my alley to just, I love thinking about how do we help heal and thrive, right? We've acknowledged these challenges. Like, let's really dig into what will empower Black women to heal and to thrive. And so that one was a lot of fun to write.
Donna Baptiste [00:27:22] Yes.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:27:23] And feels like it would be incredibly helpful. And then I would say another favorite was the chapter I wrote with my mom. So for those of you who are listening my mom's also a clinical psychologist and she co-authored a book called Shifting the Double Lives of Black Women in America. Donna, before we were talking, she was like has your mom been on the podcast? I was like oh yeah, that's a good idea. So maybe I'll bring her on the podcast. Yeah.
Donna Baptiste [00:27:50] Bring her to talk about shifting.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:27:51] But yeah, we co-authored a chapter that was about sort of the clinical implications of shifting. So how can you know clinicians understand the experience of Black women who have to code shift, right? Like, speak a different way, present themselves in a different way, right? Like all of this burden that Black women experience navigating that. And so that was just a lot of fun to work with my mom, co-write it with my mom, sort of reference a book that she has written that did so well. I think it came out, I mean, that was like 2003.
Donna Baptiste [00:28:24] That book is transformational. And by that I mean that when you check around, pretty much it's cited as we were reading and preparing to write and sort of doing some research, it's cited everywhere.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:28:36] It is.
Donna Baptiste [00:28:38] Congrats to your mom and her co-author whose name I can't recall right now.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:28:42] Charisse Jones.
Donna Baptiste [00:28:43] Right. That did a fabulous job. And to be honest, not a phenomenon that is well understood.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:28:49] Right? Yeah. So those were my two standouts. And what I love about kind of, I think what we're both sharing is while the book is sort of overall aimed at practitioners, I think both of us really strongly believe that this is a book that Black women can pick up and benefit from and can read and get insights into their own experiences. The challenge with that, maybe some tools and strategies, there's lots of resources in the book and can also know what to advocate for when they're seeking therapy. How do you think about this book as potentially benefiting Black women directly?
Donna Baptiste [00:29:38] Well, I would go even a little further. We titled a book Promoting Black Women's Mental Health and Wellness, What Clinicians Should Know and Do. And truth be told, our primary target audience are professionals in practice, people training to be mental health professionals, et cetera. But you know what, Adia, I hope women themselves, as you say, will read this book so they could know what to ask for in therapy and they can understand and begin to name some of the things that they can't. But I hope anybody that works with Black women, I hope partners of Black women will read this book. So they can see through Black women's eyes the experience of being Black and female and other identities of course in the United States. And they can get a sense of things that actually are not well named and not well understood. I actually think it could be enriching for even building relationships with Black colleagues, with Black clients, but not necessarily in psychotherapy Black female clients. I think also in partnerships, I think of Black students in school, one person reviewed a chapter or two just started reading. I shared it with a member of my family who is also a professional, and they said, wait, teachers should be reading this book.
To understand the experiences of Black girls in school and how to begin to shape Black girls to become confident and strong Black women and teachers of all colors and all races, all cultural backgrounds. So I hope there's a wider audience. And so not just to sell books, but for, the power of the knowledge of things that are sadly unnamed in our country.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:31:19] Yeah. I think it's being more and more recognized, the leadership roles Black women play, how Black women sort of, like are out front, are leading, are working, are just doing so much for so many organizations. And I think, even a small piece that their colleagues, their supervisors, their clinicians can do is to pick up a book and learn, right? So that they don't then have the extra burden of explaining all of the things that are on their plate, emotionally, mentally, physically, on top of everything else. But to have people say, you know what? Black women, you have led the charge. You have advocated, you have worked, you have done all of these things. Now let us be in a position so we can pour into you. And in order to get into that position, we've got to understand at least some of what you're going through. And the book does not replace getting to know the individual Black women in your life and their specific lived experiences. And it helps to set the stage and the context for what Black women in your life may be going through. And so to take the time and the energy to learn more, to explore so that you can better show up for the Black women in your life. I think that's really powerful.
Donna Baptiste [00:32:45] Absolutely. It's so well said. And it's our hopes and dreams. I think, once you write a book, you hope that people will, I finally understood authorship not about money, you're not going to make any. It's about a capacity to change. Well, not actually before change, to name, to explore, to grief sometimes, and to change some dynamics that people experience. So I hope people who read, like I hope the readers of this book, let's say it's a therapist that is not a Black woman. I hope they will feel the tenderness and pain and in some cases downright suffering or trauma of women they may know, let's say in their practice or personally Black woman that would experienced these things. The lack of naming, you hear me saying the word naming a lot, naming is an important beginning, right? To I would say transformation.
And so much is not known and named about Black women. So by the time a Black woman says, hey, I'm feeling this, I'm feeling that most people are, I'm watching it in the media right now with several prominent Black women that people, oh, no, no, no. You couldn't be feeling that. There's a denying there, there's a, you can't be feeling that and there's a delegitimizing there that is part of the everyday experiences of Black women. And that is the thing that must stop. So first naming then exploring, grieving and doing some, and then we get to transformation. So that's what I hope will happen with women themselves, but also the people that work with them, right? Or that love them.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:34:26] I love that. I love that. And I definitely think the book facilitates that. The naming, the exploration, the transformation. So, I am just grateful to have been able to work with you, to learn from you as we wrote this book. And I'm so excited for it to hit the shelves. It's going to be out in print and digitally, and we'll have the links in the show notes for those who are interested in checking it out and buying it and let us know what you think, right? We've worked on something for many, many years. It's been reviewed. We've been through so many processes and we would love to hear about how this is impactful in your lives and how this is helpful. And yeah, I'm just grateful to you, Donna, for coming on the podcast for sharing your wisdom. I know that people are going to be touched by it and I'm imagining people are going to be inspired to check out the book based on what you shared. So thank you so, so very much. I appreciate you.
Donna Baptiste [00:35:34] No Adia. I have to thank you. You shouldn't be thanking me. I should be thanking you for a wonderful collaborative experience, not without tension or disagreement because we're different people, but it says something about us, about who we are as Black women, as women that we could have actually had such an intimate journey of scholarship and writing and I mean talking and a very intimate, we're always in communication and remain friends and colleagues. That is a testament obvious. Thank you for the compliments. You paid me, I send it back to you, an awesome woman. And one of the things that held us in common was this idea that the passions of our lives as mental health practitioners are really to help people and to make a difference in the world. And we step into that space boldly. Boldly.
So every time I look at you, I think she's doing it. And you inspire me, you inspire me, and I know this book as people see your voice in it and mine, I think they will know this is what we're about. It's about societal change at the individual level, at the level of our colleagues, at the level of people to care for Black women, including ourselves. There go us, right? There go us. It's been a wonderful journey with you, so I'm wishing you so well and this podcast and so on. It was nice to come on today.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:36:50] Thanks, Donna. I so appreciate it. I appreciate you and yeah, thank you.
Donna Baptiste [00:36:58] You're welcome.
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Dr. Adia Gooden [00:37:01] Thanks for joining me this week on the Unconditionally Worthy Podcast. Make sure to visit my website, dradiagooden.com and subscribe to the show on iTunes so you'll never miss an episode. You can also follow me on social media at Dr. Adia Gooden. If you loved the show, please leave a review on iTunes so we can continue to bring you amazing episodes. Lastly, if you found this episode helpful and know someone who might benefit from hearing it, please share it. Thanks for listening and see you next episode.
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This episode was produced by Crys & Tiana and the music is by Wataboi.
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You may or may not know that I recently co-authored a book called Promoting Black Women’s Mental Health: What Practitioners Should Know and Do with Dr. Donna Baptiste. The book launches this May and to celebrate our book launch, I wanted to invite Dr. Baptiste on The Unconditionally Worthy Podcast to talk all about it!
Listen in as I welcome Dr. Donna Baptiste, a Licensed Professional Counselor, Licensed Clinical Psychologist, and leader of the Counseling graduate degree program at The Family Institute at Northwestern University. In this episode, we talk about Promoting Black Women’s Mental Health, our experiences writing the book, and the impact we hope it has on Black women’s mental health and the world at large.
If you’re a practitioner of any kind or you want to learn how to best support and love the Black women in your life, we encourage you to add this book to your reading list!
This healing is not for Black women to do alone.
In a study we conducted as part of Promoting Black Women’s Mental Health, we heard from Black women who were either contemplating therapy or are currently in therapy. We developed a national survey, approved by Northwestern University, that asked a wide range of questions on their thoughts about therapy, the process of finding a therapist, and their recommendations for therapists working with Black women. We learned a lot from this study that I’m sure you’ll find very fascinating and likely relatable.
With more messaging of “go to therapy” and “you need therapy” directed towards Black women, one of the purposes of this book is that when they get to therapy, they have a warm reception with a culturally comfortable environment. Our goal is for more people to understand Black women and the many nuances we experience as we navigate life so that therapy can be grounded in lived experience and understanding.
Black women have a unique experience in the world.
“We’re not just Black people, we’re not Black men, we’re not just people of color,” Dr. Donna Baptiste says, “There is something about Black women’s lives that is unique. I would say the combination of race and gender - combined, indivisible - like you can’t just see me as a Black person. I’m a Black woman and to be walking in these two identities that have been so misunderstood in Black women is what makes this so important.” Talking about gendered racism shines light on these unique experiences of Black women and how they need to be acknowledged, especially in terms of mental health.
“One of the things we struggled [with], because we talked about it a lot as we wrote, is not to present Black women through the lens of troubled lives,” Dr. Baptiste notes. We are not broken. We do not need to be fixed. We don’t need to be rescued. We need support, acknowledgement, and care. “In our everyday experience, there are things we would encounter that will discourage us deeply as Black women,” she says, “and over a lifetime, as you live longer, and in some years, those things will rear their heads and affect our mental and emotional health, and our wellness.”
This book was written to honor that experience and invite change.
“Knowing is not just to know. Knowing is to change and change doesn’t mean the circumstances change. Change means that we find a space where we can personally transcend these things and that we would infuse our lives with the things that will keep us well.”
- Dr. Donna Baptiste
To order Promoting Black Women’s Mental Health: What Practitioners Should Know and Do, visit https://www.amazon.com/Promoting-Black-Womens-Mental-Health/dp/1108823092.
Other Resources Mentioned:
“Shifting: The Double Lives of Black Women” by Kumea Shorter-Gooden and Charisse Jones: https://www.amazon.com/Shifting-Double-Lives-Black-America/dp/0060090545
About Dr. Donna Baptiste (she/her):
Dr. Donna Baptiste leads the Counseling graduate degree program at The Family Institute Northwestern University. She is extremely passionate about educating and training individuals to alleviate mental and emotional suffering in people from all walks of life. As a young adult, after experiencing difficult personal losses, Dr. Baptiste received her own counseling and saw the immense value of mental health practice. She decided then to change careers from journalism to the Counseling Profession. Dr. Baptiste says, “becoming a Counselor/Counselor Educator has been among the most joyful and meaningful work of my life. I view these professional activities not just as part of my job, but also as my life’s mission and calling”
Dr. Baptiste’s teaching and dedication to students for over twenty-five years have been honored by teaching awards and other accolades. Dr. Baptiste also practices as an individual, couple and family therapist specializing in counseling women and girls and working with couples around relationship repair. Dr. Baptiste also works with families around child and adolescent struggles, grief and loss and parenting effectiveness. As a researcher, Dr. Baptiste has also co-sponsored studies in the U.S and international locations funded by the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH). These studies are about promoting healthy development of children and adolescents by strengthening family life. Dr. Baptiste's studies have produced several dozen journal articles, book chapters in which she serves as author or co-author. Dr. Baptiste has also served on boards of several social service organizations and research committees at the local, federal, and international levels.
To connect further with Dr. Donna Baptiste:
Email her: donna.baptiste@northwestern.edu
This episode was produced by Crys & Tiana.
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