How Mindfulness Makes You Brave with Dr. Leah Katz

Apr 25

Written By Adia Gooden

— EPISODE 79 —

Spotify

Apple Podcasts

Amazon Music

Stitcher

Click here for the full audio-visual experience!

Dr. Leah Katz [00:00:00] And so I think sometimes mindfulness has this misnomer and this idea that it's to create calm and equanimity and be more joyful in life. And I think that can certainly happen as a result of practicing mindfulness. But I think what a lot of people don't recognize is it's not about cultivating or curating a certain happy experience. It's just about learning to notice and deal with what you find in a compassionate way.
[cheerful music starts]
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:00:29] Welcome to the Unconditionally Worthy Podcast. In this podcast, I will guide you on your journey to connect with the true source of your self-worth. Each week we'll discuss barriers to unconditional self-worth, the connection between self-worth and relationships, self-worth practices you can apply to your life. And how to use self-worth as a foundation for living courageously. I'm your host, Dr. Adia Gooden, a licensed clinical psychologist, dance enthusiast, and a dark chocolate lover who believes deeply that you are worthy unconditionally.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Unconditionally Worthy Podcast. On this episode, I have special guest Dr. Leah Katz. She is a licensed global psychologist and the author of the book, Gutsy: Mindfulness Practices for Everyday Bravery. I first encountered Dr. Leah on Instagram where she shares lots of insightful tips and wisdom about mindfulness, self-compassion, self-worth, and I really resonated with what she shared. And so I invited her to be on the podcast and she agreed. So you're going to want to turn in to this episode. We talk about mindfulness, we talk about self-compassion. We talk about how those things really serve to support us in showing up in our lives as the people we want to be, right? They help us with courage and bravery to make changes even through challenge. And so it's a really powerful episode. If you resonate with this episode, I want to invite you to enroll in my course, Date Yourself, Four Weeks to a Healthy Relationship with You.
Some of what we talk about in this episode is how to use self-compassion in order to release self-criticism to build a healthy relationship with yourself to really tune into yourself and get to know yourself. And that's exactly what my course, Date Yourself guides you to do. It's a transformational course that helps you build a healthy relationship with yourself. So you're going to learn evidence-based practices and strategies to release self-criticism, integrate self-compassion in your life, and to tune into yourself and learn to take good care of yourself. So it's a really powerful and transformative course that you can do on your own time, and it's available now. So if you're interested in that course, go to unconditionallyworthy.com/dateyourself, and you can enroll now. Okay, let's get into the show.
[cheerful music ends]
I am so very excited to welcome Dr. Leah Katz, onto the podcast today. Leah is a clinical psychologist practicing in Portland, Oregon. Originally from New York. She completed her doctoral training at Ferkauf Graduate School of Psychology . While living in New York, Dr. Katz worked at a community clinic where she led several groups, treated individuals and couples in therapy, and taught at Stern College for Women. She currently has her own practice, Katz Counseling, where she specializes in treating teenagers and women with a focus on treating anxiety and depression amongst other things.
She utilizes a hybrid of Cognitive Behavioral ACT and mindfulness techniques in her therapy work. She has an extensive mindfulness background and incorporates these concepts into the therapeutic work she does. Dr. Katz is passionate about girls and women's health, mental health, and helping women navigate challenges to live deeply connected and fulfilled lives. She writes for PsychologyToday.com and is the author of Gutsy: Mindfulness Practices for Everyday Bravery.
Dr. Katz speaks around the country about women's mental health. You can find her on Instagram @dr.leahkatz, Twitter @drleahkatz, and her website, drleahkatz.com, where she shares mental health related tips and strategies. And I found Dr. Leah on Instagram because her post started showing up in my feed. She had such a wide following, and so people were sharing it, and I was just finding what she was sharing so insightful. And for me, it felt really connected to self-worth and what I talk about on this podcast related to self-worth journey. And so I reached out to her and she's graciously agreed to be on the podcast. So welcome Dr. Leah. I am so glad to have you.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:04:55] Oh, thank you. Thank you for that introduction, and thank you for reaching out. I'm so glad to be here.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:05:00] Yeah. So I would love to start our conversation where I start all of my conversations with guests and people have sort of commented. I like to dive in the deep end. You're also a therapist, so I'm guessing you have similar tendencies, But my first question is if you could just share a little bit about your own self-worth journey.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:05:20] Yeah. I know that is diving into the deep end, but it's such a good question. I feel we all have our own stories, and so it's a good place to start, just knowing that we all have our stories. So let's see. I talk about this in Gutsy a little bit more, but to give you the short form, I was born and raised in, well, I wasn't born, I was raised in New York, born in Colorado, but we moved when I was young, youngest of five children. And I grew up in a very, very sheltered, very religious home where there was very high expectation of what we should be doing. And a lot of emphasis placed on external validation and what other people were thinking and doing things to make other people happy. And so that was and in a lot of ways there was a lot of beauty.
And I write about this in my book too, because I'm so careful to not get black and white about what that was like. There was a lot of beauty in that community, but I think there was a lot of de-emphasis on the self and who we are as people and sort of conforming to the social expectations that were all around us. And so I think it was a combination, probably of my placement in my family being the youngest child in a pretty large family with a lot of rules and structure to the way that I was supposed to be living that created my idea of who I was. I talk about this more in Gutsy, but I developed this idea that I was supposed to do the things that I was doing to make everyone happy.
And that worked because there's a lot of positive feedback that we get from the people around us when we conform and when we do what people want us to do and expect us to do. But I didn't spend a lot of time really paying attention to who I was beyond that, and within that. So how I was really feeling in that world and living that life. And I write about this too, that there was little strains of discontent all along, but I was young and I had this big family and big cultural environment. I didn't really start exploring my discontent with how I was living and how I felt about myself until probably my early twenties, when I started to have exposure to more things beyond what I was raised with in the environment that I grew up with.
So when I went to college and graduate school, I had all of a sudden exposure to a lot of other people, and it really helped me to recognize A, that there was a lot of different ways of living life and B, that I could attend to what was making me unhappy in my own life and give myself permission to explore and find myself. So I guess that's loosely connected to self-worth and I write about this too, I think for a very long time, probably until my early twenties, I felt I was really strong and if someone would've asked me how are you feeling about yourself? Or How's your self-worth? I would say great, I feel amazing. I feel really good about myself.
And I think it's only when I got a little bit older that I started chipping away at that and recognizing that it was not black and white, so it's not I felt terrible about myself, but a lot of my self-worth and a lot of my identity came from this external system that wasn't really working for me. And so a lot of my growth in my twenties and my thirties was chipping away at that and really affirming my identity, what made me happy and that unconditional regard for myself that I was worthy no matter what other people thought about me.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:08:36] Yeah. I mean, I certainly can relate to that, and I think a lot of the listeners can too, right? I think some people sort of grow up never fitting into the systems, right? That they're sort of their family system, the school system, their environment and sort of always feeling there's something wrong with me. I'm being told that I'm bad or wrong in many different ways and other people, right? Then there's lots of range, right? But on the other end of the spectrum, there's this, you really do fit in, right? And you know how to conform to the rules, right? You know how to kind of do what people want you to do, right? You have the ability to navigate our education system as it is set forth with the structures, right?
You know how to get the good grades and you have the capacity to do that. And so I was similar, right? I was like okay, this is how you follow the rules and do the right thing and get affirmed for that great. I got it, right? And so same, it wasn't until a little bit later that I sort of really thought about the emptiness I felt, the sadness I felt, the loneliness I felt, and connected that to self-worth challenges. And then also saw this constant pursuit of achievements and academics and whatever, wasn't making me feel the way I thought that it would make me feel. It wasn't making me feel worthy.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:09:56] Exactly. And it's so interesting because I mean, it sounds like our stories overlap a lot in that self-worth journey. But it's so interesting how, until we get to the point where we really start unpacking our own self-worth, it really does fee llke those accomplishments and making people around us happy is like that is our self-worth. And I think that it's just sort of this breakthrough moment when we're like oh wait, that's actually not real self-worth. It feels nice, and there's something validating about it, but that's not worth and I could step beyond that. I can really deepen my regard for myself and honor myself more.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:10:34] Yeah. And I think it's important for people to know that that's a process and we don't live in a society that encourages that self-exploration and that process of learning yourself and figuring out, yeah, what does make me happy? What does honor my needs? What are the parts of me? And you mentioned this, right? That fit into my family system or culture or expectations that I still want to continue and what are the parts of me that I had to hide in that and I want to reclaim or I want to tap into, and that exploration process is oftentimes slow and gradual and requires a lot of courage. And I wonder if you might say it requires a lot of guts. And so I think it's important for people to have sort of models and guides as they kind of navigate all of it.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:11:28] Yeah. Yeah. And I couldn't agree with you more. I think it is a lot easier for most of us, at least in the short term, to not rock the boat. So it's working well enough, it's okay. And that was my experience. I was okay. it was working fine. And it took a lot for me, my own courage and bravery to acknowledge the areas of pain and the ways that I was neglecting myself, and then make scary choices and really rock the boat in ways that I never had. And I feel so fortunate that I had, I talk about this in the book too. The way that happened for me and the way that I created that openness is I went by some fluke. It was really a fluke.
And I'm still like wow, I have no idea. The universe really wanted me to do this, and I'm so grateful and went on this seven day mindfulness retreat. My first meditation's been popular for a long time, and I'm a therapist, and so I dabbled in meditation in little small ways. I had never gone on a retreat or any extended sort of meditation practice. My therapist at the time was big on going on these retreats and it was right before we moved from New York to Portland. And she had been pushing me to go on one of these retreats for a long time, and there was a retreat coming up. And the timing worked out. I was in between jobs and it was right before we were moving, and was encouraging me to do this. And I went on the seven days. It was a very intense experience.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:12:47] Was it a silent-
Dr. Leah Katz [00:12:49] Some parts of it? Parts of it were, yeah, in the middle there was a couple of days of silence, which by the way, this is so interesting. Silence on meditation retreats. It doesn't mean you just don't talk. It also means you don't make eye contact with other people. You don't look at your phone, you don't read, you're really supposed to limit distraction and be with yourself in this very quiet solitude. And so, yeah, there was a little bit of that. And it was the first time that I had ever really been with myself in that kind of way. Like gone away from, I had a young child at the time, married and went away from myself, so it was the first time I ever went away, but the first time I ever meditated like that. And that was really what created all this openness to start paying attention to the areas of discontent and the fact that while I had felt I was happy and I had pretty solid self-worth, there was a lot of pieces to me that were not complete and that I really should, and I felt I really wanted to pay attention to live a better life.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:13:44] That sounds really powerful. And is that sort of what prompted you to write your book or kind of started you on this exploration journey?
Dr. Leah Katz [00:13:53] Yeah.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:13:54] And then that led to your book. Will you talk a little bit more about that?
Dr. Leah Katz [00:13:57] Yeah, so I mean, I think it led to all of it. And that's what I was saying before. I really wonder where I'd be today if I hadn't had that first experience. Because that first experience was really the experience that opened the door to everything else in my life that followed in terms of my own building myself identity and exploring who I was and making brave changes and stepping away from the culture that I was talking about earlier. Like this very religious, I went to that retreat coming from this very religious still practicing environment. And on that retreat, started to realize there were things that were really making me sad about what I was doing that were really not in line with the adult me, how I wanted to be living my life. So I remember on that retreat for the very first time I wore pants in public because that was one of, I grew up women were not allowed to wear pants.
And so I would wear yoga pants with a skirt over it. And I gave myself permission on that retreat to go out in my yoga pants in public for the very first. And I have that memory, embedded in my mind of catching myself in a mirror and the gift shop on the retreat center and just being wow, I can do this. I can make hard, scary choices and sink further into myself and reap the rewards of that. And also take the risk of that. Because there was a risk of how other people would react. I don't remember where I was going with that. Was there a question?
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:15:16] Yeah, I was asking how it led you on your path and then evolved into writing the book.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:15:23] Yeah. And so that was really it. That was the beginning of it all. And that I came home from that retreat also. I have these memories of coming home after being away for seven days and just feeling like a different person. Feeling like I had just let down this big weight. So I was lighter. I felt more joyful and happier. I was still the same person stepping back into the same life. But recognizing that change was possible for me and I could honor myself more, in terms of what I was going to do in terms of my religious practice, what I was no longer going to do, giving myself permission to really identify what I believed versus, what I didn't really believe and what I didn't really want to do. And so that was, I came home very much changed in my mindset.
It took a long time for me to make changes practically because there's a lot of fear in that and stepping away from expectations and the culture and the community and the family in terms of what they expected of me. But that's definitely the beginning of it all. And that is where Gutsy was born because I felt I had had this huge powerful experience and I'm so grateful for it. And it's changed my life so dramatically and enriched my life so dramatically. I wanted to be able to offer some of that to other people.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:16:32] Yeah. Well, it sounds like it took a lot of guts, right? You sort of from this retreat moved into this gutsy space in your life, and it wasn't like you threw everything away and you started sort of making more space for yourself and really honoring yourself in a really powerful new way. And I'd love you to just share what's your conceptualization of what it means to be gutsy?
Dr. Leah Katz [00:17:00] Yeah. I mean, I think gutsy in its loosest terms is being brave, and being brave and being gutsy. I think a lot of times we think it's these big acts, making big changes in our life or choosing to end a relationship that hasn't been going well, or leave a religion that hasn't been working for you, we think of it as being gutsy, bold, big things. And it doesn't have to be. So I think gutsy, and I talk about this in my book too, in the very beginning, it's this idea of the quiet fire, so it's the fire, but it could be quiet, it could be subtle. And I think when we pay attention to the subtle areas of discontent in our life, that's where we can make the biggest changes because those build and build and build.
And I think that's what gutsy is. Gutsy is learning to really pay attention to ourselves. Do these check-ins with ourself. How am I doing? Is there anything that I'm holding onto that I wish to be different? Is there any change that I can make? Is there any way I can rock the boat in a way that will lead me to greater happiness and fulfillment and letting ourselves make those changes in small little ways? It doesn't have to be big and it doesn't have to be bold but it's scary even those small steps are scary.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:18:08] Yeah. I think that makes so much sense, right? Because I think often what happens for people is that they either sort of feel that something needs to shift or they ignore that something needs to shift. And because it feels hard and scary to even make little changes they wait until they are forced to make a big, like you wait until you have a huge health issue, right? Do something to like, I often say people tend to blow up their relationships when they don't have the courage to address and maybe even end their relationship in a conscious, intentional way. But because it takes so much courage to have a conversation with a partner that says, this isn't working for me, and I love you and I'm so grateful for our relationship and I'm scared to end it, and I don't think we should be in it, right?
That takes a lot of courage. And so what people do instead as it's uncomfortable, is they blow it up, right? They will have an affair, they start a fight, right? You do all of these things, right? And so I love that you're talking about these small moments of being gutsy or practicing gutsiness because it's in those small moments that we can really make radical changes in our lives, right? And it may be a little bit more gradual, but it also allows us to avoid some of the big wake up calls.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:19:33] Right.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:19:34] That often force you into really huge all at once, burn the house down kind of things, which-
Dr. Leah Katz [00:19:38] Exactly.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:19:39] Ideally we don't have to go through that.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:19:43] Exactly. And as you're talking, the analogy that's coming up for me is when we're weight training, we start with weights that are just beyond our comfort zone. We don't start with the lightest weights, but we definitely don't start with the heaviest weights. We start with something that we can hold, but it's a little difficult. And then we build and we build and we build. And I think that's what being gutsy is. It's like okay, what's the next thing that I can do to help me feel braver and stronger and more in my own life and in my own body, like agency so in a funny, this might sound a silly example to people listening, but I think that it's small things like this. So a lot of people have trouble, if you order a drink at Starbucks and you get the wrong drink, a lot of people I know, I work with a lot of people with anxiety, and I know I've been there before where it's just easier to be okay, it's fine.
I like this drink. It's okay, but it's actually not what I ordered. Or I wanted it hot and they served it cold, or, but gutsy can be just having the courage to say oh, hey, this is actually not what I ordered. Like small little things like that because it's lifting the weight and flexing that muscle of advocacy and confidence and not caring as much about what other people might be thinking about you.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:20:46] Yeah. I love that. I love that as a little example, the thing that comes to my mind is like getting your hair done and it doesn't look good and you're like okay.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:21:02] Oh my gosh, that's so relatable.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:21:05] Right? So I think there's so many, I love the example because there's so many little ways that we can practice the advocacy and understand that that can be in align with our values, right? I think sometimes because we are not used to setting boundaries until we're angry or advocating for ourselves until it's an argument. There's not a model for what's a gracious and courageous way to say, hey, this is really what I want, or this is what I need, or thank you so much and that's not quite right. Can we redo it, right? And it doesn't mean this is not okay salon, I'm not paying you, it doesn't have to be that. It can be like-
Dr. Leah Katz [00:21:46] No.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:21:47] Wow. I realize that you're really trying to, but that's actually not what I want. So can we spend a little more time and get it right? You know what I mean?
Dr. Leah Katz [00:21:54] Of course.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:21:55] There are ways to do it, even though part of your insides is going to be like just take it and go, just say you're okay and get out of the chair.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:22:05] Exactly. That's why I always emphasize in what I write, that giving ourselves permission to do things or speak up for ourselves, doesn't give us permission to do it without skill. We always need to hold onto skill and really try and keep ourselves regulated. That's when we know that we're doing it right. And I think that's when we know that we're healing. It's when we could really speak up for ourselves in the way that you just modeled, lead with compassion and empathy. oh, I know that, da da da, but really this isn't what I wanted. Or can we try this again? Or whatever it's for whatever situation, but that's it. We got to find that balanced path.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:22:36] Yeah. And so one of the things you talk about is, or I think it's in the subtitle of your book, that mindfulness is something that can give people courage or help people to be brave. Can you talk about how mindfulness helps with that?
Dr. Leah Katz [00:22:51] Yeah. And some of my favorite research studies show the correlation between mindfulness and the quality of being brave. That people who practice mindfulness tend to score higher on these bravery measures. And the reason for that is because practicing mindfulness is this practice of learning to get quieter and notice what's going on for us, within us. And oftentimes that can be very uncomfortable, very uncomfortable to find what we're talking about in our conversation areas of our life that we're actually not happy with. It's easier to distract ourselves away from that because things are fine, they're good enough or it can feel really uncomfortable and scary to notice how we talk to ourselves, our inner dialogue, how harsh so many of us are with ourselves, how we're beating ourselves up all the time.
And that takes a big quality of bravery to say, I'm going to take some time where I can just get quiet and turn inward and pay attention to what I find. And so I think sometimes mindfulness has this misnomer and this idea that it's to create calm and equanimity and be more joyful in life. And I think that can certainly happen as a result of practicing mindfulness. But I think what a lot of people don't recognize is it's not about cultivating or curating a certain happy experience. It's just about learning to notice and deal with what you find in a compassionate way. And oftentimes because the human experience can be painful and hard for all of us at different points in our life, if we're quiet and we turn inward, what we find is hard stuff. And that takes guts and bravery.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:24:27] Yeah. I mean, I think even in what you're saying, right? It actually takes some courage to practice mindfulness to be still, and then it's reinforcing, it's almost like the courage to face our inner world, right? And we live in a world where distractions abound and the ability to avoid, right? Is easier than probably it has ever been in the history of humans, right? Like social media, online shopping, and it could be podcast, TV show, right? There are so, so, so many ways to avoid, to avoid our experience. And mindfulness says, okay, I'm going to stop avoiding.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:25:16] Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:25:18] Right? Like I'm going to sit with however I'm feeling whatever I'm thinking. I'm going to notice it, I'm going to be with it. And then often what's scary is what if I actually acknowledge what's not working in my life then what does that mean, right? So you talked about this, you came back from that retreat feeling like okay, so something's got to change, right? And that didn't mean cutting off your family and totally leaving, right?
Dr. Leah Katz [00:25:49] No.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:25:50] Your religion, right? And it meant, hey, I'm going to shift some things. And so maybe you had to have some hard conversations, right? With some people and say, hey, this worked before, I know it's working for you, sorry it's not working for me, right? And to see are they going to be angry, upset, that sort of thing. And so I think often people fear, if I go down this path, am I going to have to end this relationship with someone? Am I going to have to? And the truth is, we can't say, right? Because it's possible that you may come to some insight that your job isn't working for you anymore, that it's making you miserable, or your relationship or where you live, or, you know what I mean? And I think what I like to encourage people with is usually on the other side is a life that actually feels like the life you want to live.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:26:41] Yeah, exactly. And that's such a beautiful way to put it. And I think that in reflecting on my own journey, that has been so much of my experience that making changes was hard and scary and everything you said was accurate. Having really hard conversations, dealing with rejection, dealing with judgment, all of that was hard. And starting to make changes felt scary and felt like taking a big risk in that way. But I wouldn't have it any other way. It really, I think when we turn towards the areas of pain, when we turn towards ourself, you really can't go wrong. That's my belief and I know that it can come with different outcomes that are really hard to hold, but it's so worth it.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:27:20] Yeah. And I think it's also helpful for people to think about what's the alternative, right? So let's say you stay living in a way that really isn't aligned right? Like your relationships aren't aligned, your job or career isn't aligned. Like the way you're treating your body isn't aligned. What is the consequence? How much life are you willing to spend in that space, right? And so it's okay, and sometimes that's a slow burn, right? And so people can just put it off, put it off, and it's like we only get a certain amount of time here.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:28:02] Exactly. Yeah. And I think that that's what I got from that mindfulness retreat too. And I was young-ish when I went on that retreat, one of the younger ones, a lot of people who were there were probably in their fifties and sixties, and I was almost 30. And so I felt really grateful to have had that experience at that stage in my life. But that was a big part of what came from that meditation is really recognizing that we've got this one life to live and how short it is. And I love what you said, what's the alternative? What's the cost of me not paying attention to myself? Because we're going to pay a price either way, and it's just making a decision about which one we want to pay.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:28:39] Yeah, exactly. Right. I talk to people that's like the comfort of dysfunction the dysfunctional comfort versus true comfort and contentment. And in order to get from one to the other, you're going to have to go through actual discomfort and challenge, right?
Dr. Leah Katz [00:29:01] Exactly.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:29:02] But it ultimately, it's better, you're better off, it's going to be better. And so that again, takes guts, takes courage. And I think, the mindfulness piece and certainly self-compassion, which I want to talk about too helps people to have the tools to be there for themselves during that process. So I'd love for you to talk about kind of how you think about self-compassion, why it's so helpful to use that and to replace those harsh self-critical voices that you mentioned earlier.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:29:38] I think self-compassion is the cornerstone that we need to make the changes that we're talking about today. If we really want to pay attention to the areas of discontent and pain in our life and make change for ourself and set goals for ourself, if we don't do it in a compassionate way, I think we're just going to end up going in circles, because then we're just reinforcing other negative habits or hard ways of talking about ourself. But self-compassion is where it starts. And I think it's just what we need to carry with us along the journey to make it the most rewarding journey and the most effective journey I think that we can possibly have. So self-compassion is really this idea of learning. So mindfulness is what's here for me? Let me pay attention. What thoughts am I having?
How's my body feeling? What emotions am I having? And then the self-compassion that we need, which is also a part of mindfulness practice, is what kicks in after we find what we find. So often, so many of our brains are trained to say, oh, my shoulder's hurting me. Oh shoot. why am I slouching? And why? We go right away from the observation of what's here for us, right? Into some sort of judging narrative about what we find, or we glimpse at ourselves in the mirror and they say, oh, I really need to lose weight. Look at me. So we have the observation and then right away our brains are trained to jump in and deliver something really harsh and unkind to ourselves. And that just digs us deeper into a hole. A big hole. And self-compassion is, I find what I find and how can I be here with it and notice it in this way that's really kind and loving and generous.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:31:10] Yeah. I love that. And you're making me think, so we both sort of practice some ACT, which is Acceptance Commitment Therapy. And you're making me think about sort of what we talk about in ACT, which is clean pain versus dirty pain, right? And so clean pain is you stub your toe and your toe hurts, right? That's a human thing. You stub your toe, your toe hurts. Dirty pain is kind of what you're talking about, Leah, which is okay, you stub your toe and then your toe hurts and you call yourself, oh, you're so clumsy. I can't believe you did that. How did you not see that wall? You're always running into things, you need to be more careful da da da da da and maybe some of that is an internalization of what a parent said to you when you bumped and were running and jumping and falling as a kid and scraping your knee. And then suddenly it's your mom's voice saying how could you do that? You're da da da da da da.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:32:06] Exactly.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:32:07] Right? And then that's the hole you dig yourself into. So not only does your toe still hurt.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:32:10] Right.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:32:11] The criticism did not take that away, but now, your heart hurts. Your soul hurts.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:32:16] Exactly.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:32:17] Now you feel embarrassed and now you feel silly and clumsy. And all of these things and it didn't make your toe feel better. And it honestly isn't going to make you more careful about how you move-
Dr. Leah Katz [00:32:38] No.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:32:29] Your body around the space. It just makes you feel bad. It digs you into a hole.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:32:33] Exactly. And I think that's also the ACT way of framing it, the difference between pain and suffering. And there's this really beautiful old Buddhist tale that I think illustrates this so nicely. If you imagine a man walking in the forest and he gets hit by an arrow in his shoulder that's very painful to get hit by an arrow. It's like ouch, he got hit by an arrow and then he starts going into his mind and saying like what was I doing out in the forest at night? And what's going to happen? Am I going to die? Am I going to lose my arm? My wife? Oh my gosh. And that's like when he gets hit by a metaphorical second arrow. So the first arrow is pain. You can't control what's happened to you, what's happening to you in painful ways a lot of times. But we can control how we choose to be with it. We can control that second arrow and that second arrow is the suffering. And so I think that that's a big piece of mindfulness and self-compassion. Can we just stay with the pain and notice the pain and observe it and have compassion for ourselves for feeling the pain without going into that secondary suffering part of ourselves, which we all do, where we're trudging ourselves and berating ourselves and wishing it hadn't been and yeah.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:33:34] Exactly. Right. And the other thing is I really like telling people about the research on self-compassion, because I'm sure you see this all the time in your practice, right? I hear this all the time, which is like but if I'm self-compassion, I'm going to left myself off the hook. I'm not going to do anything. I'm just going to lay on the couch all the time and I'll never get anything done and I'll never make progress, right?
Dr. Leah Katz [00:33:57] Yeah.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:33:58] And I like to say, actually we have research that says that self compassion increases motivation, reduces stress, improves resilience, right? Lowers anxiety and depression. It is, as you're saying, a cornerstone like when you have the practice of self-compassion to guide you through life, and I know that I use it all the time in my life, right? It helps you navigate life's ups and downs and show up for yourself and show up in the world in the way that you want to.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:34:29] Exactly. And I think to add to that, it also becomes this modeling piece for those of us who have kids or people in our life that are watching us, we're giving them a priceless gift by modeling self-compassion. We're helping give them the language of self-compassion and also to add to the science behind it. When we practice self-compassion, we have more compassion for others because we know compassion more deeply. And so there it's just right. You can't go wrong with self-compassion
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:34:54] Can't go wrong. I love that. And I love that you're also talking about modeling, because I think there's more and more parents who are our generation who are like okay, we want to do this thing differently, right? We are hearing about conscious parenting, about gentle parenting, about all of these approaches. And I think it's so important for people who are on this journey to keep in mind that you also need to offer the same consciousness, right? Which involves mindfulness, gentleness, which involves compassion to yourself. And that the biggest impact you're going to have in terms of modeling how your child should treat themselves, feel about themselves, talk to themselves, is how you do all of those things to yourself.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:35:45] Exactly. Exactly. I mean, and talking about science, because science is so powerful because it gives us data for people who are more skeptical. Science says that's how we raise good kids is by modeling the values that we want them to have. And this is an important value, the value of self-compassion. But it extends beyond self-compassion too. Our kids are watching us and that's how they learn the most. Yeah.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:36:07] Yeah. And I think even in that knowing there are some perfectionists listening, recovering perfectionist here, you don't have to get it perfect, right? And it's actually the process of how you respond to missing the mark that is really powerful, right? Even the process of saying Ooh, Mommy did not do that in the way that she wanted to. I noticed I was criticizing myself or I was criticizing you or I, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm going to forgive myself for that. I ask you to forgive me. And I was having a hard time. That is the opportunity, right? The expectation-
Dr. Leah Katz [00:35:46] Oh my God.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:36:47] Is not perfection.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:35:48] No.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:36:49] It's okay. It's noticing. Which again, mindfulness helps you to notice, right? And if you have a regular practice of mindfulness, it puts you in that mode of noticing more quickly because you're training your brain to do that. And then okay, you notice, and then you respond with kindness and compassion.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:37:07] Exactly.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:37:08] Not well, you should just do everything perfectly and hold your breath because then you'll never right.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:37:13] Exactly.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:37:14] That's not the expectation.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:37:15] No. And I'm so glad you pointed that out because I think people sometimes feel oh, so I should be mindful all the time. Oh great. Well I'm not going to do it because I'm going to be such a bad meditator or I can't do that. And that is not the expectation. It's just to bring more of that awareness into your life in small increments and in ways that you can. And you're not going to do perfect and you should not be doing it perfect. And no one does it perfect. And yeah, for all you perfectionist out there recovering perfectionists too. So like I'm talking to myself really also, but we're not supposed to be perfect. And what you said so beautifully, the opportunities when we do it imperfectly are such beautiful opportunities to repair so beautiful, with ourselves. Like oof, that was a hard way of talking to myself, can I do a do-over with myself? But with the people around us too, with partners, with kids, to be able to swing back around and say like I know that was hurtful and I'm so sorry. Can you tell me how that made you feel? How can I make it right? I mean, I think our relationships get so much closer when we do that.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:38:10] Yes. I love that. I love that. Well, I would love for you to share a little bit about how you encourage people to start integrating mindfulness in their lives or start practicing mindfulness. I know you've heard thousands of times, I'm a bad meditator, I can't do it, right? So I'm curious about how you sort of navigate those objections and encourage people to start practicing mindfulness, whether it's meditation or integrating mindfulness into their lives.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:38:40] I think the best way to start integrating it is to start really small. So choose one activity and just bring an awareness of your senses to that activity. So it can be right after you listen to this or it could it be even at this moment, pay attention to what sounds you hear, what sounds do I hear in this moment? And then, and I think a cool thing about starting to practice this is then you notice, okay, I hear the sounds and then I have an interpretation of those sounds right away, or I'm noticing my body and then I have an interpretation of what I'm finding in my body right away. It's that automatic interpretation that our brain does. And the awareness is with both of that, it's with the experience of the sensory input that we're getting, and then our brain's automatic function to interpret what we find.
And we bring mindfulness to both of that. And I think that secondary piece of like oh, okay, so I just heard this noise and then my brain automatically said oh, why are the neighbors so loud? We really get an awareness about the patterns of our thinking from that secondary step. But the way to just bring it into your life is through just like choose something small. Go on a small little walk and for one minute of that walk just pay attention to the sun on your face or the breeze or something. And that's a great way to bring a little bit more mindfulness into your life. And I also think it's important to go over a little bit of the misnomers around mindfulness to help people want to bring this into their life more.
Because I think we can get caught up in the ideas that we think it is. And that can just be a deterrent. Like I can't do that. A lot of times people feel like well I can't sit still and I can't be still and oh, it's not for me. So you can do it moving, I mean, if you like movement, do it while you're stretching, do a mindful run, for a minute of the run. You don't have to be still. And another big one that I hear from a lot of people, which I think could be a deterrent, is mindfulness means I need to get super concentrated and focused on this one thing for the entire time that I'm practicing and that is how I know I'm being a good meditator.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:40:36] I'm doing it right.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:40:37] I'm doing it right. I've got to just focus. And gosh, that's like woo, that's really scary. Because we can't do that. Our brains don't work that way. So and actually again, science so cool, the function of mindfulness that helps our brains is not the focus on that thing that we're trying to focus on. Let's say I'm paying attention to sounds. It's not by keeping my attention on the sound, it's noticing when my mind wanders and then I bring it back and it wanders and then I bring it back. And that's actually where our brain grows. It's the noticing of when my mind is wandering from what I'm wanting to pay attention to, and I notice where it's gone and I gently bring it back. And so I think that that's something important. it's okay for your mind to wander. Of course it's going to wander.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:41:19] Yes. Yes. Thank you for saying that. I love that. I mean, when I learned about meditation and mindfulness, it was because I was in graduate school and I was on an externship, a training and that was part of it. I was like I can't do this. I had all that ha ha, and because it was a part of my training. I didn't really have a choice, I'm grateful for that because it meant that I had to persist. And then by the end of grad school I was leading mindfulness groups, you know what I mean? And so I also encourage people to persist, right? And it's a really good experience of taking something out of the framework of achievement, right? Because so many of the people who we talk to who are I can't do it right. And I'm not going to, you're achievers, you're type A, you want to do it right? You want to do it well, you want to do it quick.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:42:10] Right.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:42:11] And mindfulness is not meant to be about that, it's about the process of sitting and even if you only notice in the hundreds of times, your mind wanders in five minutes, maybe you notice it once. Great. And so it's a process. And so even being willing to practice it takes you out of a normal way of being, which is so much more about doing and achieving and the more you do it, the easier it will get and the more you'll sort of feel into it, feel like it's easier to sit for a little bit longer, right? Notice all the criticisms and start being wow, that doesn't sound so good. And so it'll expand, right? And so just being patient with the process and patient with yourself can be really helpful.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:43:01] So helpful. And that's such an important thing to keep in mind, right? it's supposed to be slow and it's supposed to be boring. That's okay. I tell this to people all the time too. It’s not like I meditate once and I feel amazing,
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:43:14] Right.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:43:15] Sometimes it's really hard and you don't really notice the benefit after, but sometimes you do, sometimes you sit down, you're like wow, that was really helpful. And then it's the accumulation of the time that we spend and that space where we're quiet and we're paying attention, that really builds up.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:43:27] Exactly. Exactly. I love that. Well, I would love for you to share just maybe a little bit more about your book Gutsy, what readers gain from reading your book, and then where people can find it and where they can connect with you.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:43:43] Oh yeah, sure. So the full title of the book is Gutsy: Mindfulness Practices for Everyday Bravery. And I think that's important because Gutsy doesn't tell you much about what the book is about, but that second part really does. So Gutsy is about how we can bring more awareness and mindfulness into our lives to access greater meaning and fulfillment and learn to be brave. And so I talk about lots of different components of that in the book, Gutsy, how we can access greater self-worth and figure out who we really are, self-identity, and even things working with physical pain or getting braver in our relationships. I talk about all of that in Gutsy.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:44:19] I love that. Well, thank you so very much for taking the time to be here with me on the podcast. I know that the listeners are going to get so much from this, and I'm guessing people are going to also want to follow you. Leah has an amazing Instagram account that's at least where I follow you. She shares so much wisdom and knowledge. So just tell people, remind people again, we'll link it in the show notes where they can connect to you on social media, your website, that sort of thing.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:44:46] Sure. Yeah, so I'm on Instagram. My handle's at dr.leahkatz. It's D.RL-E-A-H-K-A-T-Z. And I share mental health tidbits and mindfulness and self-worth and all of that. Inner child healing is another thing that I talk about a lot on my Instagram account and my website is, drleahkatz.com, and you can find my book on Amazon or Barnes & Noble, or Targets. It's sold wherever books are sold.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:45:09] Love it. Thank you so much, Leah. I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom with me today.
Dr. Leah Katz [00:45:13] Thank you for having me. This was great.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:45:16] Awesome.
[cheerful music starts]
Thanks for joining me this week on the Unconditionally Worthy Podcast. Make sure to visit my website, dradiagooden.com and subscribe to the show on iTunes so you'll never miss an episode. You can also follow me on social media at Dr. Adia Gooden. If you loved the show, please leave a review on iTunes so we can continue to bring you amazing episodes. Lastly, if you found this episode helpful and know someone who might benefit from hearing it, please share it. Thanks for listening and see you next episode.
[cheerful music ends]
This episode was produced by Crys & Tiana and the music is by Wataboi.
Cali by Wataboi https://soundcloud.com/wataboi
Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0
Music promoted by FDL Music https://youtu.be/ZdQI7WQWi_g

Do you want to know the key to facing your biggest fears, pains, and insecurities with bravery? Do you want to learn how to access greater meaning, fulfillment, and bravery in your daily life? Join the club! I think we could all use a boost of bravery and confidence every once in a while… so, consider this week’s episode your weekly boost.

In this episode of Unconditionally Worthy, I welcome Dr. Leah Katz, a licensed clinical psychologist, speaker, and author of Gutsy: Mindfulness Practices for Everyday Bravery. Leah’s extensive background in mindfulness enables her to incorporate mindfulness into the work she does with teenagers and women to help them navigate challenges and live deeply connected, fulfilled lives.

Listen in as Leah and I talk about how mindfulness and self-compassion help you show up as the brave, resilient person you want to be in life. We discuss how to replace self-criticism with self-compassion, along with some scientific research on self-compassion, mindfulness, and bravery. Then, Leah shares tips and advice on starting your own mindfulness practice, especially for those of you who aren’t interested in traditional meditation.

If you resonate with this episode, consider enrolling in my Date Yourself Course, where you’ll learn how to use self-compassion to release self-criticism and build a healthy relationship with yourself. You’ll learn evidence-based practices and strategies for taking good care of yourself and integrating self-compassion into your daily life. Learn more about the Date Yourself Course at www.unconditionallyworthy.com/dateyourself.

“Until we get to the point where we really start unpacking our own self-worth, it really does feel like those accomplishments and making people around us happy is our self-worth.” - Dr. Leah Katz

The journey of exploring and reconnecting to your self-worth starts with mindfulness.

It takes mindfulness, courage, and bravery to acknowledge how we’ve been neglecting ourselves and diminishing our own self-worth, and how we can make a change. Change can be scary sometimes, we’ve all felt that fear before, but the longer we wait to make a change, the farther we get from where we truly want to be. Recognizing change is possible will empower you to be brave in your self-worth journey (or any area of life!).

Change happens in the small moments where we recognize that we can tap into our confidence or be our own advocate. It’s going up to the barista to tell them your drink is not what you ordered instead of going about your day sipping a drink you didn’t ask for. It’s asking your hairstylist to trim a bit more off your hair instead of going home hating the haircut you just paid lots of money for. It’s befriending that other parent you always see at the playground, even when you’re feeling shy. It’s in the small moments of bravery and courage where change happens… and that also starts with mindfulness.

Leah references a research study that shows a correlation between mindfulness and the quality of being brave. The study shows that people who practice mindfulness tend to score higher on bravery measures. This is because practicing mindfulness teaches us to notice what’s going on within us, which is oftentimes very uncomfortable. It can be scary to realize how harsh our inner dialogue is and it takes bravery to confront that.

It’s important to mention that mindfulness isn’t about curating a happy, joyful experience. Mindfulness can be very challenging or uncomfortable at times. Leah says it’s about learning to notice and be with what you find in a compassionate way. The human experience is hard. It takes guts to face our inner world and our outer world… but it is so beneficial to us.

Listen to this episode to learn so much more, including how to start a mindfulness practice, but here are a few key takeaways…

How Mindfulness Makes You Brave:

Mindfulness pushes you to acknowledge discomfort, especially within yourself. Seeking discomfort builds bravery.
Mindfulness helps you identify what you’re feeling. You can then discern if those feelings are serving you or hindering you, then act accordingly. When you turn towards the areas of pain instead of turning away, you build upon the courage you already had within you.
Mindfulness encourages you to notice and sit with the pain that you feel, helping you to build resilience and bravery for the next time you feel pain.
Mindfulness helps you realize you only have one short life to live. With that in mind, you see how every decision has a price to pay, but you feel more clear about what you’re willing to pay. When life is short, you realize you have to go through discomfort to live a full life… and that’s okay!

“Self-compassion is the cornerstone that we need to make the changes that we’re talking about today. If we really want to pay attention to the areas of discontent and pain in our life and make change for ourself and set goals for ourself, if we don’t do it in a compassionate way, I think we’re just going to end up going in circles.” - Dr. Leah Katz

About Dr. Leah Katz (she/her):

Leah Katz, Ph.D., is a clinical psychologist practicing in Portland, Oregon. Originally from New York, she completed her doctorate training at Ferkauf Graduate School of Psychology. While living in New York, Dr. Katz worked at a community clinic where she led several groups, treated individuals and couples in therapy, and taught at Stern College for Women.

She currently has her own practice, Katz Counseling, where she specializes in treating teenagers and women, with a focus on treating anxiety and depression, amongst other things. She utilizes a hybrid of cognitive behavioral, ACT, and mindfulness techniques in her therapy work. She has an extensive mindfulness background and incorporates these concepts into the therapeutic work she does.

Dr. Katz is passionate about girls’ and women’s mental health, and helping women navigate challenges to live deeply connected and fulfilled lives. She writes for PsychologyToday.com and is the author of Gutsy: Mindfulness Practices for Everyday Bravery. Dr. Katz speaks around the country about women’s mental health.

To connect further with Dr. Leah Katz:

Visit her website: https://www.drleahkatz.com

Follow her on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.leahkatz

Follow her on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrLeahKatz

Buy her book, Gutsy: https://www.drleahkatz.com/gutsy

This episode was produced by Crys & Tiana.

If you enjoyed this discussion, share it with a loved one, then…