How to Pursue Excellence Without Perfectionism with Danielle Kristine Toussaint
— EPISODE 66 —
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Adia Gooden: (00:00:01) This episode is sponsored by Crys & Tiana taking the guesswork out of launching your podcast.
Welcome to the Unconditionally Worthy podcast. In this podcast, I will guide you on your journey to connect with the true source of your self-worth. Each week we'll discuss barriers to unconditional self-worth, the connection between self-worth and relationships, self-worth practices you can apply to your life, and how to use self-worth as a foundation for living courageously. I'm your host, Dr. Adia Gooden, a licensed clinical psychologist, dance enthusiast, and a dark chocolate lover who believes deeply that you are worthy unconditionally.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Unconditionally Worthy Podcast, Season Four. On today's guest episode, I have Danielle Toussaint, and she's an executive in the non-profit world. We talk about what it's like to navigate the non-profit world as a black woman, as a woman of color, feeling the pull to be a martyr, resisting that pull, while also really deeply committed to the work. We talk about what it looks like to focus on excellence and not perfectionism, on how to forgive yourself, how to show up for yourself, how to manage your emotional experience while living and working in predominantly white spaces. And it's a really powerful conversation that I think is going to help so many people. So if you're looking for insights on how to overcome and release perfectionism, if you're looking for insights in how to navigate a world of work where you feel really passionate, but you don't want to overwork and overextend yourself, this episode is going to share so many gems. Danielle drops a lot of wisdom from her 20 year career in the non-profit world and as an executive. So listen till the end and let us know what you think. Let's get into it.
I am welcoming Danielle Kristine Toussaint onto the podcast today. Danielle is the Chief External Affairs Officer at NewSchools Venture Fund. In this executive role, she leads brand storytelling and engagement brokers and manage strategic partnerships and provide support and oversight to the development and communication teams. Prior to joining the team, she was the inaugural mortgage communicator in resident for Ascend at the Aspen Institute. Previously she founded and led She Thinks Purple, a woman powered creative agency that leverages storytelling and live and digital content experiences to elevate women and founders of color leading mission driven companies and organizations. She's been a brand strategy and marketing advisor to a growing list of successful fintech and edtech. So I'm really excited, Danielle, to welcome you to the podcast.
Danielle Kristine Toussaint: Thank you. It's really nice to be here.
Adia Gooden: Wonderful. So I'd love to start our conversation by asking you to tell us about your own self-worth journey?
Danielle Kristine Toussaint: This is a really interesting question and I'm one just really glad to be having this conversation. And I want to thank you for your contributions on this topic because I actually don't think it gets talked about enough. I don't believe that I have struggled most of my life with worthiness. It was something that was very intentionally cultivated by my parents. And as I've gotten older and my relationship with my mom has shifted. What I've noticed is that what she lacked, she very intentionally poured into me. So where she felt like there was not always a sense of self-worth where she struggled with that, where finding her voice was difficult, where feeling like she deserved things in her life and deserved to go after things in her life was difficult. She just channeled all of that into making sure I never had those doubts or I never had those experiences.
So it hasn't actually been until adulthood where like new experiences have hit me being a wife now and, you know, an executive and being an entrepreneur, like these different identities that demanded new stuff of me were the moments where I felt like, am I doing this right? Am I enough? Will I be able to meet this? Like why does it feel harder to do the things my metabolism acting crazy as I (inaudible) being like, why can't I just eat whatever I want? Like those new things ushered in a different way of thinking about my worthiness and tested me, and I think challenged me to remember to assign myself worth to things that were durable and lasting versus assigning myself worth (00:05:00) to external things. Like keep validation or getting the A plus or all the other things that are really, you know, tempting to think are your worth, but they're not, they're not really the source of it.
Adia Gooden: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you sharing that, that for you it's been when you've faced more challenges, when you've kind of gotten to higher levels in your professional career or, you know, sort of deeper levels of relationship commitment, that when those challenges have come up, that's when you've sort of felt like, whoa, like what does it mean if I'm not just performing perfectly right off the bat and I don't just have everything together and feel, you know, a 100% confident, like what does it mean to be worthy and connect to my sense of self-worth while I'm learning and growing in this new world as a wife or in this new world as an executive. And can I sort connect to a sense of worthiness even in that process.
Danielle Kristine Toussaint: It's definitely being with new things. And I also, you know, I did a lot of reading around like the connection with confidence and people's ability to succeed in their social enterprise and starting businesses as entrepreneurs. When I was writing my book Dare to Think Purple and what was really interesting to me was that confidence can be practiced. But I don’t know that self-worth is practiced in the same way. I think that confidence is like the byproduct of having cultivated self-worth in the way that like stepping away from stuff like perfectionism and things that might hold you back are the byproducts. But I think that you don't practice it. I actually think it's the better analogies might be like a plant. Like something that you plant and that you water and that you give sunlight and that you tenderly like continually manage so that with care it blossoms in you and that seed planted early in your life by people who do the watering and then you've got to take over that on your own. For some we haven't had that and we've got to root out some stuff and plant it ourselves, cultivate it and water it. But it is a very different, much more organic not within your control process than I think the, like you just practice this skill and then it shows up, the other things do that we often I think conflate self-worth with.
Adia Gooden: Yeah. That's an interesting, I think sort of metaphor and way to think about it. I think I often talk and I think my use of practices maybe a little bit different than your conceptualization of them or how you're using them here. But I often sort of talk about there are sort of practices that help you to connect to your unconditional self-worth. And those could be thinking thought of as like things that you do to tend to your garden or to tend to your plant. And they're not like practices as performance, right? Often confidence is about external performance oriented things, right? Like I show up this way and I like get dressed in this way and I put my makeup on and I talk in this way, right? Like they're very sort of like performative, right? And they can be helpful and like it's a little different than the sort of internal practices, which I tend to talk, which is I treat myself this way, right. When I'm having a hard day, I practice self-compassion by tuning into how I feel and offering myself comfort and kindness or, you know, I practice self-forgiveness, right? So it's a little bit of a different framing, but I do think there's a through line from like, how are you tending to your inner self? How are you showing up for yourself? How are you caring for yourself? Which I think relates to how you're talking about like tending for a plant and watering it and nurturing it and taking out the weeds and taking out the things that harmful to it.
Danielle Kristine Toussaint: I so appreciate that.
Adia Gooden: Yeah. Well, you, you know, have a career in the nonprofit world and you have certainly, you know, done impressive work and are doing really impressive work at a high level in this nonprofit world. And I'm wondering how that has sort of intersected with your sense of worthiness, right? Being in the nonprofit world and then also sort of related to what you were just touching on, which is like as an executive, right, like this some maybe a little bit of imposter syndrome and a sense of like, can I do this, right? This is more challenging than the role that I had before, like can you talk a little bit about how your work and your professional experiences have intersected your self-worth?
Danielle Kristine Toussaint: Well, having spent all my career in social impact nonprofit or entrepreneurship that sort of society driven, socially driven, impact driven, mission driven, whatever you want to call it, you know, it's this interesting thing that happens where particularly when you're working on behalf of issues and causes and people and communities that you feel really (00:10:00) deeply connected to and you're solving things that still have like direct, you know, impact to your own family and community that you I'm situated in, right? I feel like I go harder for it because it feels personal. I don't feel like I can just approach my job with a sort of disconnected dispassionate, like it's just a job, right? It's never been just a job. It's always been about something more. And so that is a good thing, but it also can lead to a lot of like bad habits around self-neglect, that putting self-last. And not in like the appropriate, you know, sacrificing for cause, but I mean like to the point where it becomes martyrdom, right?
And I think that that the challenge that I've noticed I've had to navigate, but I've also noticed it as a theme, particularly when I started interviewing and talking to other women in social entrepreneurship or who are working in the nonprofit sector or who were recovering from the nonprofit sector and said never again because they'd never worked harder in their lives and felt like they were less valued or valuing themselves less than they were supposedly doing this on behalf of like the culture. And so they really were like, you know, almost needing to recover from those experiences. And I know what that feels like. I know what it feels like to not just hit a place of burnout creatively and physically and mentally, but to just feel like its sustained burnout. Like you're not even sure when you'll be able to lift that psychological additional weight off.
Because for as long as you're working in this, it's always going to come with these almost like triggering and re-traumatizing experiences. Because you're like, oh, when will we solve this problem? I don't have the point of view that humanity is going to fundamentally solve in any sort of finality the challenges that we work on. Like that's actually not my belief system. Believe that while you occupy space, right? Like the rent you pay is caring for your neighbors and doing your best to just leave people in places better than you found them. So that's really the orientation. And I think having a more almost modest assessment around what I can contribute and what I will solve is one way that I've been able to help kind of combat that where it's like I don't have to shift and change the world. I don't have to save anyone. And therefore I can just do my best and know that that is enough. But it's taken me years of getting there. I've been working in this sector for 20 years and so it's taken that entire amount of time, I think for me to keep learning and relearning that.
Adia Gooden: There's so many layers to what you're saying, which I'd love to kind of just like dig into. So there's one that I heard, which is when you're in this doing this work in this, you know, social impact nonprofit world, usually you're doing it because you're incredibly passionate about the work, right? So there's a layer of you're being pulled into the work, pulled to sort of like throw yourself into it because you're passionate, because you want to impact people's lives, make a difference, right? Like make some changes. And so there's that layer of just like I want to make a difference. There's so much to do, right? There's that layer. And then you're sort of talking about I think what can often lead to overwhelm, which is we've got to fix this and there's this urgency of we've got to fix it now. And I hear you saying that sort of moderating your goals and expectations for yourself and for the impact has helped you to engage in the work in a sustainable way instead of feeling like I've got to spend every waking hour doing this work because it's so urgent and we've got to fix it now. And, you know, like getting yourself into that space, which you’re saying it's like it's not sustainable, it leads to burnout out.
And then I think there's another layer, which is the pull to derive your sense of worthiness from the work that you're doing. And particularly like how you're helping in the world. I think women are social certainly socialized this way, particularly black women, women of color, right? Pull to say you're worthy when you are serving others, when you are making an impact, when you are going above and beyond, right, to make a difference, when you're holding everything together, when you're working in the background. And that can definitely pull towards martyrdom as you mentioned, right? Like if I'm the martyr, then maybe that's where my work comes from. I'm always the one who has, who is there, I'm always the one, you know, burning the candles at those ends. I'm always the one doing this. I'm always self-sacrificing that, you know what I mean? So that can be really a pull.
And so I want to dig into that and I thought of one more thing, which is there can also be a layer of guilt, right? Like especially I think if you're working (00:15:00) with communities that are underserved, there's guilt in like how could I take this vacation or do this self-care thing if these people over here are struggling with poverty, right? And so then there can be this sort of like can I take care of myself if I know that there's lots of people who don't have that luxury or don't have that ability? So I'd love to just hear your thoughts about sort of those, my reflections of what you said and particular the sort of martyrdom and self-worth connection.
Danielle Kristine Toussaint: It's all of the things you said, right? Your analysis is spot on. I want to add another layer, which is that the longer you are in the sector and the more senior your role is, you're also now starting to observe the behavior of your colleagues, right? And so particularly for colleagues who either socioeconomically they don't identify with the communities that you're doing the work with and on behalf of or on dimensions of race and other identity dimensions, right? Like they just don't have context. They are free to just approve their work as the work. They're okay with doing the job to the best what they believe their capacity is, and then like taking their salaries and going on vacation, reinvesting in their families. A lot of the folks who choose this work their wealth is already generational, right?
And so they feel free to do this type of work because they don't feel the pressure of having to, you know, be the first in their family or second generation in their family that's building wealth and sustainability for future generations. And so it creates such a weird identity layer when you actually are recognizing that there's a measure of privilege that you're enjoying by virtue of whether it's credentialing or now being senior or being well compensated or being a funder in a space or associated with like the funding side of it. That's a huge shift. And even your own identity and how you relate to the folks that you may previously have felt kinship with, who may not see you as one and the same, but you're also port between a whole other group of folks where you don't quite feel like you identify because they still represent in some ways they're very structures that you're trying to interrupt and you're trying this, right, and ways that are productive and that call people in closer that are not about shaming or, you know, like sort of calling out people in ways that hold them accountable for things that they may not even control.
Like they don't, we don't describe where we're born in society and how that we often don't discover the implications of those things until much later. And it's really difficult work.
And so I do think that particularly as someone who's working in organizations on the fundraising, on the storytelling, on the brand building, on the external communications and narrative, I feel a real sense of responsibility to tell the whole story, right? To bring all the parts with me and to not feel like I've got to feel shame around any of them, right? Like it is okay to be someone who was, you know, born to, you know, folks who immigrated to this country, came with a reason, very much invested in me educationally, lots of pathways, benefited from many nonprofit organizations that were creating bridges and owning what it meant to have that identity for the parts of my life. Whose family working hard and whose economic trajectory has changed significantly. It is okay to own what I will want for myself and future generations in my family. And that the point is progress and it is okay to continue to grapple with the fact that there's a lot of injustice. And I think every single person deserves those same opportunities. And I really am not comfortable, you know, not working on behalf of helping to open that up. But all of that is work. It’s a lot of work. It is daily navigation. And I have to choose what I'm going to compartmentalize and what I'm going to engage with in any given moment. And it is an added layer that I don't believe everyone who works in this has to account for. I think it is to me as a black woman who's come from working class family, who has had an immigrant experience, like name all the things.
There's also lots of good things as somebody who's like gone Ivy League schools and has a whole network of people and has lots of access. And I'm okay with doing the work to navigate the whole, but I won't suggest for one second that it doesn't mean that it's extra work. And that comes back to the like, which parts of these things give me value. And I think for me, that's why I'm really cautious when I start to feel like my value is getting overly attached to something outside of me, something external, something (00:20:00) I don't control. It can't just be Danielle doing this on behalf of like her family. It can't just be on behalf of me. It can't just be because this is what's expected of someone with my pedigree. At some point, my values just got to be, I walk this earth and I live by a set of principles that make me valuable to others and to myself. And like there has to be a period at the end of that. It can't be, and then all the rest. Because when you start leaving space for all the rest, I think you start to diminish what is actually your value. And it's really, really hard. And you don't even notice sometimes when you start to attach it to things outside of you. But I know I feel it. I feel it when I'm out. I feel it when I'm, you know, like why are these things triggering me? Why does it seem to matter so much? And it's like if all this went away tomorrow, would you still be okay with you? And I think about that. But I would say just like anybody else, I don't know that I'm always in, you know, in perfect balance.
Adia Gooden: And when you say you feel it, like do you know, what do you notice in terms of your behavior? Like do you notice that you tend to work longer hours or be more upset with yourself if you don't get all the things that, like what is that? Like what are you feeling? What are the signifiers, right? Because I think a lot of people listening are wanting to do this work that you're talking about wanting to start shift things. And I think they'd probably find it really helpful to hear from you, like these are the flags, like when I see myself do this or when I start feeling this, like these are the signs for myself that I need to re-center. What are those things for you?
Danielle Kristine Toussaint: Overdrive. When I feel myself going into overdrive, it's not a normal level of productivity. It's almost like a manic level of productivity where I now have a list for list and every single thing has to happen and I just, I'm going into the controlling function even with my team where it's like all right, it's big and its ambitious and I now need to see the plan for everything and all the deadlines back. It's this need to somehow control the whole universe around me versus when I am aligned and I'm not seeking the value and validation externally. It's not like I need to get this perfect then I'm a lot calmer. I'm a lot more capable. Just roll with things to be creative and collaborative to let other people generate solutions versus feeling like I've got to tell everybody what needs to happen.
I also noted physically. Like I will take time for myself. I will run on my peloton tread. Like I will center the things that are just for me when I go a week and I can't remember what I did even for 30 minutes every day. That was just for me. It means that I was completely out of balance. Like I didn't love on myself that week. I was loving all externally. It was about everybody and everything else, and all the things got done except for the most important thing, the thing that I'm responsible for, which is myself. And I would say the last thing is fatigue. Like there's something about the drain that comes from not being connected to me. And when I feel that it usually expresses itself as I could sleep all day, even when I have 13 hours, I don't feel like it was that restful eight hours because I'm waking up to the dread of the list, do list, I'm tired at the beginning of the day and I'm tired at the end of the day. And it's no longer about sleep. It's actually about whether or not I'm resting in myself, like within myself, I feel rested and calm and at peace. Or is every second of the day like so anxious that there isn't enough sleep that could possibly, you know, remove that. And those are some of the things that are like my clues where I'm like, okay, Danielle, like get it together because there's only one you. And if there's no you, there's nothing else. Like you can't contribute anything else if you're not here.
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Those are such great examples. I'm so glad you shared those, right? So one, getting into over control mode, right? Like sort of operating from a space of anxiety, worry, and like, okay, I got to control everything. This is going to work, kind of thing versus being in alignment, trusting yourself, trusting other people, collaborating, trusting that things are going to work out with, of course, with planning and all that stuff, but not feeling like you have to hold tight and over control. And then there's the neglecting self-care, not doing things to take care of your body, take care of your mind, take care of your spirit. And then there's just the fatigue that runs through, like low motivation, low energy, not, you know, not having the energy to kind of do what you need and want do. And I think that's so important to recognize because sometimes I think people fear that if they're grounded in their self-worth, they're going to lose motivation and they're not going to do anything. They're just going to sit on the couch all day. And I like to say you might occasionally because that feels really good and you need it and what we find is when we're driven by perfectionism or anxiety or, you know, needing to control everything because we've got to prove our worth and, you know, our work depends on this going perfect, right? That may motivate this in the short, but ultimately if that's sustainable because we end up burning out, we end up being exhausted. And it also robs us of the joy that we once felt when doing the work, right?
I imagine for you that you love the work you do, right? That's why you have sort of been in profession, you know, been on this career path for the last 20 as you've said, and you love it, right? Otherwise why would you keep doing that? And but when we're in this over controlled like anxious place, when we're feeling burned out, when we're feeling exhausted, it no longer feels joyful, right? It no longer feels meaningful. And I think that also leads to the fatigue and the exhaustion and I just want to do it. I can't, I can't bring myself to do it. And so I hope that people are hearing you and think and using that to check in. Like what have you experienced these things, right? Like have you noticed and these dynamics for yourself and when you noticed them, could that be a signal, right? That you're trying to get your worthiness from this external thing and can you re-center, right? Can you go back to sort of connected to the truth of who you are, right, and being kind to yourself and taking care of yourself as a reset?
Danielle Kristine Toussaint: Yeah. It's exactly that. It's exactly that. And I've heard you say the word like perfectionism a few times, and that's a word that I like to think about what is like if like what's the opposite, right? Like what undoes perfectionism? For me, it comes back to three things like that are sort of like the antidote, it's like forgiveness. If I'm leaning into perfectionism, it's probably because I thought there was no room for error. But if I just forgive myself relatively, I break that cycle, I go, oh, of course I was going to be able to make this mistake and I'm great. I'm just fine. I'm okay. There's nothing that's different about me because I made a mistake other than I'm still the same human that I was always going to be. Like humility and openness, like the ability to let people tell you, but you might not have seen yourself. That openness to receive that often interrupts the perfectionism. It's like I don't have to know the answer. But the answer is out there. And then like genuine curiosity, like when they mistake, like it's not final because there was something that was off. It's an opportunity to get really curious and it's like when I do those things, I don't feel the same perfectionist impulse. But I will tell you Dr. Adia, I have been doing a lot to (00:30:00) also make sense of what is the difference between perfectionism and just a commitment to excellence. Because I will never not have a high bar, right.
And so even when it comes to my team, like I've had to start to have conversations with them around, this is not about perfectionism. This is simply about a standard of excellence that I don't believe is without is, is beyond our reach. It is only possible if we're working together with a lot of trust and as our best most open selves. But it is doable and achievable. And I know, because I've seen it done, I've done it, others have done it. It's doable. And it's not appropriate for us to just decide to not be great. But we can decide that it should feel a certain way and that we can set appropriate goals and that we can scaffold those goals and we can make adjustments along the way. So how about we commit to, we don't change the bar, but we absolutely are willing to change anything that's needed for us to achieve that bar.
And I think that's important because I've noticed a lot of folks that have started to conflate, you know, excellence and perfectionism and it's like they're not the same by any standard. And I also have never experienced as a black woman, anyone being willing in my work and professional life to accommodate anything but excellence as it comes to me. So I didn't make the rules, but I do want to win. And part of that is having a standard. So I don't know if that's something you've experienced as well with themes, but I'm just careful about the language around it because I think we still can be committed to excellence and give ourselves grace and not, you know, try to be perfect.
Adia Gooden: Yeah. I completely agree. And I actually think, you know, perfectionism gets in our way because really what perfectionism is, is believing that nothing is good enough unless it's perfect. And perfectionism usually causes us to overwork or to procrastinate or as I like to say, to get into a cycle of procrastinate, procrastinate, procrastinate, oh my gosh, deadline's here. I'm overwork for a week, burn myself out, right. And then I'm procrastinate again. And so we create these unsustainable, unhelpful cycles when we feel like nothing is good enough unless it's perfect. And I think there's a difference between excellence and perfection because usually nothing is perfect, right? Like usually nothing is like no flaws, right.
And I think the other challenge we have is that we think that in order to have an impact or an order to be effective, things have to have no flaws at all. But the truth is that most of the things that we actually enjoy, appreciate, like they're not totally perfect, right? Like you know what I mean? Your favorite restaurant, let's say, I bet you've had service there that wasn't like impeccable, right? There are those restaurants like couple Michelin-Starred, like you're going to go to restaurant and the service is going to be impeccable. That's great. But there still may not be like perfection, right?
And so I like to think, and I think there's, I like to think about process and I think that fits into kind of what you're talking about with excellence, is how can you focus more on the process than the outcome? Which doesn't mean that you don't care about the outcome at all, but you're not so focused on the outcome that you kill yourself in the process, right. But that you think, what is our process to get to excellent? Well, as you sort of mentioned, we collaborate, we communicate, we give ourselves enough time, we, you know, like have multiple drafts of things. We test things out. We go back and test again. We rework things, we write like all of that can be a process that gets you to excellence versus everything needs to be perfect at every moment, right? Similarly, people get into struggles with like writing. If you expect yourself to be perfect on that first draft, you're probably staring at a blank screen. Maybe you get a sentence in, right? Like because that's not the writing the process, the writing process is draft after draft, after draft, after draft. And it's the process of being willing to draft and rework. And that doesn't sound quite right. Let me get, find another word. Let me rephrase this, let me reorganize this. It's that process and the commitment to the process, which involves, as you've said, openness, humility, willingness to accept feedback, right, curiosity, all of those things that you named and that allows you to have an excellent book, right, or an excellent end product versus everything needs to be perfect (00:35:00) every step of the way, which just then stops you in your tracks.
Danielle Kristine Toussaint: Exactly.
Adia Gooden: So, you know, I also love that you mentioned forgiveness, because I think that's such a big thing, right? Like being willing to forgive yourself and give yourself grace along the way. Because we are challenged when we expect ourselves to be perfect, to get everything right at any moment. And then we, instead of giving ourselves grace when we make a mistake, we beat ourselves up, right? That's a huge, I think, challenge that people experience. And people I think justify the beating themselves up. Because they say, well, this is how I grow, but the truth is that it makes you feel bad and it doesn't make you like you can learn and grow. So I'd love for you to share maybe a little bit more about what that self-forgiveness, what that grace giving yourself grace looks like for you?
Danielle Kristine Toussaint: Well, it's more just about my energy and my time. I am guilty of this, right? Like I am one of those recovering perfectionist types because I think very early on, and this is both a good and a bad thing, but when you excel at the sort of organized things in your life as a young person, school extracurriculars, you know, you're well behaved, right? Like you just get all of these signals that that's what is good and anything else is bad. And you just keep striving for that. And you're trying to best yourself every time. And that's just not, that's not life. And I am one of those people who like I will say something wrong in a conversation or I will say something that maybe didn't quite come out the way I meant it. And it'll be a week later and I will still be like wondering if I need to go back and say something to the person.
Now, mind you, they are not checking for me. Like they have not thought about me for that conversation probably since the words left my mouth. But it could be months later and I'll still see them and I will time think about, you know, how do I make sure I don't say what I said the last time? And that is not a healthy response, not a healthy response to feel so overly responsible for how every single person interacts with you. And it isn't that I think everybody for me or that I should be for everybody, but this is with people that I like, know and love, right? Who I know are giving me grace. And yet I can't always do it for myself.
So practicing self-forgiveness for me is actually very intentional. Like I have to say to myself, you get exactly today to feel about this thing that didn't go well, to feel how you want to feel. Do you need to go for a walk? Do you need to just sit here and watch some Netflix? Like whatever you need to do to get over it, you get today. And then tomorrow you are not allowed to sit with this any longer. You must think about the solution and begin thinking about and acting toward the solution. And I do find that it is necessary to give myself some space to acknowledge, because if I try to pass it, that's just not me. I need to, I have to ask myself, is this something that gets to the level of, like it requires a conversation. If not, you have to move on and you have to trust the other person has, and then you need to get back to work.
And I also think that part of self-forgiveness is, you know, in permission asking and sometimes in acknowledgement, like there are, there have been moments where I feel like a colleague and I had an interaction and it wasn't what I intended. And I will take a minute before the end of that day to, you know, call them and for 15 minutes just say, you may be all right. But I want you to know, you know, this is, you know, the respectful relationship that I want us to have. And if my way of showing up today in any ways, like, you know, hurt that please know that like it sat with me because words stick with me. And I can't imagine like maybe my words maybe sat with you. And I've had some wonderful conversations with colleagues who have said, you know what, Danielle, I didn't think anything of it, but I appreciate this conversation because it lets me know in the future, right? Like where you're coming from and it'll be so much easier to give you grace and for you to give it to me because you were willing to have this acknowledgement moment.
So I'm not saying be one of those people who's just like I forgive myself so I could be everybody else to acknowledge it and move on from it. But then there are times where it doesn't, it's not that serious. And you just need to like give yourself 15 minutes, give yourself an hour, give yourself a day, and then move on. And knowing the difference is really about conserving energy because we don't have unlimited energy, we don't have unlimited time. And I just, I hate losing time and losing, you know, precious energy that could go towards something so much more productive because I'm wallowing or because I'm just, you know, and I think it is that stuckness that I fear the most sometimes, which is like while you're sitting here stuck, you could be resting, you could be recovering (00:40:00), you could be reimagining what's next. You know, you could be so much more productively engaged, but you're not, you're just sitting here beating yourself up over nothing. And because I've been there and I've done it, I'm a lot more careful about how I interrupt that process.
Adia Gooden: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It makes me think about, you know, one of the effects of perfectionism is not having any tolerance for the feelings that come up when something doesn't go the way you wanted it to go, right? So we have sort of perfectionism in both the sort of like outward, like how are we performing? And then there's also perfectionism. Because it's like, I can't tolerate that feeling of guilt or that cringe or that move like I don’t know what to do with it. And so instead of, you know, offering yourself grace and space and compassionate, okay, well, I’m going to beat myself up, right. And what people don't recognize is that when you wallow in it or beat yourself up, you're, that actually doesn't help you clean it up, right? But what you're describing is I give myself space to acknowledge it, which I think is so important. And then I determine once I'm a little bit calmer, do I need to clean this up in some way? Do I need to have a conversation with the person, right?
And sometimes that answer is like, no, like it really wasn't a big deal. And sometimes that answer is like, yeah, I actually do want to say, hey, I didn't intend to or whatever. I want to clean it up. And when you're ground your self-worth and you are yourself grace, it's easier to do that. And you're not calling and saying, oh my God, I'm worst, I'm the worst person in the world and I'm awful. And I'm like, ah, blah, blah, blah, like you're not doing that, because really what that does is please tell me that I'm not, right. Is asking person to affirm you instead of acknowledging, hey, I may have done something that didn't feel good for you and I'm willing to hold this space to hear that, right? Like I can give myself space to process the like, oof, I might have gotten that wrong. I might have said something off. I might hurt you in some way. I can hold the space for that. Because I know that I'm human and I make mistakes and it doesn't make me unworthy and it doesn't make me an awful person. And I really value our relationship.
And so I'm going to have the process of talking to you about it, of bringing up in a way that we could have a constructive conversation. Because I don't expect that our relationship should just be perfect without any, you know, messy middle type of stuff. Because that comes up in relationships, whether it's working relationship or romantic relationship, friendship. And so I love that you're sort of describing how you walk through that process. And I think that the process here is key because you cannot control how somebody else responds. You can't even, we can't even really control our emotional response, right? But we can have a process of here's how I respond to myself when I feel guilty or when I feel embarrassed or when I feel upset or hurt, or here's how I respond to myself. I give myself space, I give myself time, I figure out what I want to do. I don't beat myself up. I remind myself I'm human, and then I, and then I take these steps to clean it up, move forward, etcetera.
Danielle Kristine Toussaint: I just want to say how much I appreciate that part that you mentioned about knowing we can't control ourselves. Because that I think is the, that is my battlefield, right? It's that I'm someone who, I pride myself on being very poised on being posed, right? Like the poker face is real, right? So it's like, there's so many things where it's just like, and I have not, I have not been given signals and, again, throughout any of the spaces I've occupied professionally that you get very far when you are emotion, when you are, you know, sort of externalizing those certain emotions. As a woman, there's a lot more scrutiny as a black woman. The only emotion that anyone recognizes, whether it's the emotion that I'm showing or not is anger, right? So my voice goes to a register that's not my normal calm, it is immediately perceived as she must now be angry, she must be upset. Any of the other stuff, excitement, you know, just an intense curiosity. Like none of that is ever heard. It's always, it's often perceived as anger or I'm now having to explain and defend why I am not upset and in fact I am something else. I find that to be really counterproductive, it just, I'm not here for it.
And so I think a lot of what I have then adopted as behaviors is like, you must be in perfect control of these. And I know now I know better than to believe that I am. And so what I do instead is I might maintain composure, but there are spaces that (00:45:00) I have baked into my work life where I get to just speak, express, talk it out with my executive coach. These are places where I get to say, yes, of course I held it together in that meeting. But here's all the stuff I did not say that I believe needs to be said, you know, so that I can productively go back and engage with whoever it is, colleague, X team, member X, whoever, in a productive way. Like I have to get these things out. They have to be safe, they have to be, you know, accountable, right? Like I am still responsible for managing people who need to feel good. They need to feel trust, they need to feel that they're, they know what version of me they're going to get every day. They cannot come into a place where, depending on how I feel that shifts the energy around our work. That said, I'm a human. And it has come out some way and it can't always come out perfectly. Sometimes I just need to say it in its messiest form and then decide what pieces of this are worth preserving and taking on. And that is not always afforded to people, particularly earlier in their career.
And so what I would want to say to your listeners is like, you must build those spaces for yourself. And if that looks like you and a couple of your friends have a conference call at the end of the week, and you take turns and you say, we are allowed this hour and everybody gets 20 minutes in this hour, say what they need to say. And there's no judgment. We don't need to fix for each other. We just need to know that this is a space where we can say it and it's validated. And all I want to hear is, I hear you, I see you, I'm with you, and then you move on to the next person. Like give yourself that space. But don't assume that you can just keep going through your professional work days if it's, you know, speaking with a clinician, right? Like that's, I feel like you exist, right? But it's like find your space. I did not always do that, but I had amazing friends, like I just had a crew and my crew held me down, right? For all the times when I didn't know, and it wasn't as discussed the need to like consider your mental health and emotional health. I would just experience things and they were my place where I could go, but I know better and I've resourced myself better now than I ever have because the complexity and the volume and the number of things that I need to be messy around have just, they're more and I won't be able to be my best self in the work if I don't make room for my own messiness. But it's again, it is taken time. And I work better than I ever was.
I can't expect everyone is going to have what I have 20 years into my career. So I would say be really intentional about the things that are available to you because it is not the same bar. We are not allowed the same grade. I have many other of my female colleagues of different races feel comfortable sometimes expressing emotion, crying being, I mean, I've been called into meetings and a colleague is crying and apparently it's because of me and I am minding my business, living my (inaudible) doing my job, and I'm now having to stop and attend like, you know, it's attend to someone else's feelings. We didn't get the opportunity to do this one on one, like none of that. So I'm not going to suggest that these things aren't still happening, but we have to give ourselves the room because it may not be in the moment, our emotions may not be welcome in that moment and it might not be advantageous, but they exist and they're lingering and we've got to get them out.
Adia Gooden: Yeah. I think your recommendation to find or create space, whether that's therapy or coaching or with your friends, right, where you can sort of process and speak your truth, speak your emotions is so important because the danger is you're in a space that doesn't give you the room to sort of express those parts of yourself, those feelings. And you start internalizing that these parts of myself are therefore not good, not okay, right? But the distinction we need to make, which you're sort of touching on is these parts of myself deserve space and room. It may not be safe for me to have that space and room at work and I'm going to find other places. I'm not going to say that I'm bad or wrong and I'm worthy because I don't, because I have emotions. That's a human thing. I'm going to figure out how to find the spaces where I can express myself fully because I know that it's not safe, and it's not going to career to express myself in the raw form at work.
I'm going to, you know, process it and then I'm going to figure out which parts I'm going to bring back, which parts I'm going to give feedback on and how I want to do that (00:50:00). And it's so much easier to figure that out once you're calm, when you're in the moment and you're, you know, frustrated, fired up than it's really hard. It's really hard to do that. So I appreciate you sort of walking people through how you have done this in your career and sharing what works for you because I think so many people will find that helpful. So that is, you know, where I think we're going to have to sort of wrap this conversation. I feel like we can talk for much, much longer and I'm guessing people are going to want to stay in touch with you. So please let people know kind of where they can find you on the inter-webs and how they can stay in touch.
Danielle Kristine Toussaint: You can find me very, very easily on LinkedIn. Just Danielle Kristine Toussaint. I am pretty easy to Google and find as well just with my name. And I build a lot of community there. You can also learn about my current venture, creative venture Purple House if you go to daretothinkpurple.com. So that's the website and there you'll be able to learn about just how I partner with folks on creative projects, but also you'll be able to find my book, which is called Dare to Think Purple. So those are the best ways.
Adia Gooden: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Danielle. I appreciate you being here, sharing your experiences and your wisdom.
Danielle Kristine Toussaint: Thank you for having me. This was incredible.
Adia Gooden: Thanks for joining me this week on the Unconditionally Worthy Podcast. Make sure to visit my website, dradiagooden.com and subscribe to the show on iTunes so you'll never miss an episode. You can also follow me on social media at @dradiagooden. If you love the show, please leave a review on iTunes so we can continue to bring you amazing episodes. Lastly, if you found this episode helpful and know someone who might benefit from hearing it, please share it. Thanks for listening and see you next episode.
This episode was produced by Crys & Tiana and the music is by Wataboi.
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Is there a way to pursue excellence without being overwhelmed by perfectionism? Yes, there is!
In this episode, I welcome Danielle Kristine Toussaint, Author, Advisor, Angel Investor, and CXO of the nonprofit, NewSchools Venture Fund.
Listen in as Danielle and I talk about how to pursue excellence without perfectionism and focus more on the process than the outcome of your work. We discuss what it’s like to navigate the nonprofit world as a woman of color, feeling the pull to be a martyr, and resisting that pull while also deeply committing to the work. We explore how to show up for yourself, forgive yourself, and manage your emotional experience while living and working in predominantly white spaces.
If you’re looking for insight into how to overcome perfectionism and navigate a world of work where you feel really passionate, but you don’t want to overwork yourself, this episode is for you. Danielle will leave you with several valuable gems of wisdom, that can’t be contained in this blog post, that you can take with you into your own life.
While there are practices you can do to connect with your self-worth, Danielle believes that self-worth is not practiced. She believes self-worth is planted, then continuously tended to and grown with care so that it blossoms within you.
Just as gardeners aren’t perfect at growing every kind of plant, humans aren’t perfect at growing their inner selves. Thus, we shouldn’t expect ourselves to be perfect at growing as a human.
The biggest challenge Danielle and many other women in social entrepreneurship or the nonprofit sector have had to navigate is working extremely hard only to feel undervalued. It feels like sustained burnout. We want to prevent this, but how?
“I think having a more modest assessment around what I can contribute and what I will solve is one way that I’ve been able to help combat that,” Danielle says. “I don’t have to shift and change the world, I don’t have to save anyone, and therefore, I can just do my best and know that that is enough. But, it’s taken years of getting there.”
Moderating your goals and expectations for yourself and your impact is one way to mitigate perfectionism. It can help you engage in work in a sustainable way, instead of feeling like you have to spend every waking hour working. The pull to derive your sense of worthiness from the work you’re doing, and particularly how you’re helping the world, can pull you towards martyrdom. In that cycle, you’ll always be the one self-sacrificing and overextending yourself, often to the point of guilt. How could I possibly take time off or indulge in self-care if there’s people struggling that need my help? Sound familiar?
This is very powerful to think about.
Sometimes, we fear that if we’re grounded in our self-worth, we might lose motivation and drive to reach our goals. It’s important to recognize that when we’re driven by perfectionism, anxiety, or the need to control everything because we need to prove our worth, that is ultimately an unsustainable, unhealthy form of motivation. Plus, it robs us of the joy we once felt when doing the work.
To get back to that joy, it’s helpful to focus more on the process than the outcome. Take a look at the following insights and see which ones you resonate with the most.
How to Pursue Excellence Without Perfectionism & Focus More on the Process Than the Outcome:
Moderate your goals and expectations for yourself and the impact of your work. This will enable you to engage in your work in a sustainable way that doesn’t lead to burnout.
Notice when you feel yourself going into overdrive, almost like a manic level of productivity. In these moments, can you delegate or allow others to generate solutions instead of assuming full control and responsibility?
Focus on centering your physical and mental health and wellbeing. When was the last time you did something just for YOU? If it’s been more than a week, it’s time to pencil something into your schedule!
When you feel fatigue, check on your connection with yourself. Oftentimes, when we feel fatigued, we’ve been so wrapped up in our to-do list that we haven’t taken a moment to check in and see how we’re truly feeling or what we’re in need of.
Find or create a safe space where you can talk about your emotions and find solutions with other professionals in your field or a similar position.
“What undoes perfectionism?” Danielle asks. “For me, it comes back to three things that are sort of the antidote… Forgiveness. If I’m leaning into perfectionism, it’s probably because I thought there was no room for error, but if I just forgive myself quickly, I break that cycle.”
“Humility and openness, like the ability to let people tell you what you might not have seen yourself. That openness to receive that often interrupts the perfectionism. It’s like, I don’t have to know the answer, but the answer is out there,” she says.
“And then, genuine curiosity. It’s not final because there was something that was off, it’s an opportunity to get really curious and it’s like, when I do those things, I don’t feel the same perfectionist impulse,” Danielle says.
There’s a difference between perfectionism and a commitment to excellence. Many of us will never not have a high standard of excellence for ourselves, and that’s okay! What’s important is that we harness the power of collaboration, delegation, rest, and those three keys: forgiveness, humility and openness, and curiosity. With that, we can pursue excellence without perfectionism.
About Danielle Kristine Toussaint:
Danielle Kristine Toussaint is Chief External Affairs Officer at NewSchools Venture Fund. In this executive role, she leads brand storytelling and engagement, brokers and manages strategic partnerships, and provides support and oversight to the development and communications teams.
Prior to joining the team, she was the inaugural Morgridge Communicator in Residence for Ascend at the Aspen Institute. Previously, she founded and led She Thinks Purple, a women-powered creative agency that leverages storytelling and live and digital content experiences to elevate women and founders of color leading mission-driven companies and organizations. She’s been a brand strategy and marketing advisor to a growing list of successful fintech and edtech companies, including EnrichHER, Rosecrans Ventures, Boost, and HireGround.
Danielle is author of the book, Dare to Think Purple: A Survival Guide for Women in Social Entrepreneurship, published by New Degree Press, and has also been the writing pen behind op-eds and speeches for Huffington Post, Forbes.com, and TEDx. She’s spoken on live and virtual stages for events hosted by Taco Bell Foundation, Aspen Institute’s Financial Security Program, Ellevate Network, and Fearless Communicators.
Danielle holds a B.A. in Political Science and African American Studies from Yale University and a M.S.Ed from the University of Pennsylvania Graduate School of Education.
To connect further with Danielle Kristine Toussaint:
Learn more about Danielle: https://www.newschools.org/team/danielle-kristine-toussaint
Visit her website: http://daniellekristine.com
Connect with her on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniellekristinetoussaint
Learn about Purple Haus: http://www.daretothinkpurple.com
Get her book, Dare to Think Purple: https://amzn.to/3uyNEnd
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