The Truth About Imposter Syndrome with Bre Clark
— EPISODE 75 —
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Dr. Adia Gooden: Does this sound like you? You're feeling exhausted, overworked, and undervalued, and you're ready to start prioritizing yourself. You are your toughest critic, constantly pointing out mistakes and tearing yourself down. You feel like you're playing small, and you want to show up in a bigger and more aligned way. The Unconditionally Worthy Group Coaching Program helps high-achieving professional women just like you claim their work outside of the hustle. Through this program, you will show up for yourself, your family, and your community from a place of power, while finally experiencing the peace and joy you've been longing for. Apply now for one of the 10 spots available in the upcoming cohort of the Unconditioning Worthy Group Coaching Program. It'll begin the week of April 17th, so be sure to get your application in now. To apply, go to www.unconditionallyworthy.com/program. Can't wait to see your application.
Bre Clark [00:00:00] They no longer want to do things that they do not love, but they're not going to devote all of their time and energy to something that they don't want to do. And that is okay. And a lot of people are finding success because they're finally doing what they want to do. They're doing the things that they love, and it is bringing them joy and fulfillment. And I think we're seeing a real shift for people who are dealing with imposter syndrome.[cheerful music starts]
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:00:23] Welcome to the Unconditionally Worthy Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Adia Gooden, a licensed clinical psychologist who believes deeply that you are worthy unconditionally.
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Hello and welcome to another episode of the Unconditionally Worthy Podcast. As always, grateful to have you here with me today. I record these intros kind of right after usually I record the episode, and today after I finished the episode, I went upstairs, took off my jewelry because my workday's almost over. And when I hold the baby, like she's all into the jewelry, the earrings will be pulled out, et cetera. So I tried to take it off, and then I came back downstairs and thought, Ooh, I forgot to record the introduction. So if you are watching on YouTube, you will now see that I don't have jewelry on now, but I will when the interview starts. And for those of you who are listening, you might not have known that we have all of our episodes up on YouTube. So the last couple of seasons, there's video.
So if you are a visual person, you like to see people, you want to know what we look like when we're talking, check out our YouTube channel. All right, so today I have a guest, her name is Bre Clark, and she's a reporter who really focuses on imposter syndrome. And so we really have an interesting and dynamic and engaging conversation about imposter syndrome, about the challenges people experience with imposter syndrome, the link with self-worth. And we talk about some strategies to overcome it. One of the things that I want to share with you is that I have a free guide on understanding and overcoming imposter syndrome. And in that guide, I share about the link between imposter syndrome and self-worth. How external factors like oppression and discrimination and those sorts of things can impact us and impact our experience of imposter syndrome. And I share some strategies to overcome both. So this is a new free guide and I want you to sign up for it. All you have to do is go to dradiagooden.com/imposter syndrome, enter your name and email, and it's going to be sent to you. So this is a great episode. Be sure to listen. Let us know what you think. And as always, I would love if you left us a rating or review.
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That is incredibly helpful for us in terms of feedback for the show, and it helps other people find us. Alright, let's get into the show.
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I'm really excited to welcome Bre Clark onto the podcast today. Bre is a seasoned multimedia journalist and news personality with a decade of experience in broadcast news and public relations. Bre has interviewed countless politicians, experts, celebrities and social media influencers, and everyday people where she discovered most were searching for confidence and lacking self-worth. Bre just launched a new talk show called The Real Deal, where she unmasked imposter syndrome and speaks with successful people about confidence, self-worth, and their personal battles with imposter syndrome. So, so much of the work that you do is aligned with what we talk about here on the podcast, and I'm very excited to have you here. Welcome, Bre.
Bre Clark [00:03:41] Yeah, I'm excited to be here. I've been following your work and I love what you're doing, so I think we need more of this type of stuff out there.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:03:49] Yes, thank you. Well, I'd love to begin our conversation where I start all my conversations with guests, which is by asking you to talk a little bit about your own self-worth journey.
Bre Clark [00:04:00] Yeah, I'm actually still on my self-worth journey and I don't think-
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:04:04] All of us are.
Bre Clark [00:04:05] Yeah, I don't think you ever stop, I think that you're constantly evolving. You're constantly growing and maturing. And if you're not, I mean nothing alive stops growing. It just doesn't. So my self-worth journey, it's looked a lot different these past couple of years. Because at first my self-worth was rooted in other people or other things, and those expire, I'm learning those things expire. And so when those things dwindle or go away or change, what does that mean about me and how I feel about me when that happens? And so my self-worth it started off, it wasn't great. I was bullied all through school until I got to high school.
And I learned that the bullying would stop if I would become somebody that the people liked. And so I just kind of was a chameleon. I would shift and change depending on what group of people I was around. And you kind of get lost in that. And your identity isn't really shaped at that point. And when I got into TV news, I had a better understanding at that point. I was married, we had lost a child. Like we had gone through some stuff. And so with that comes growth, but I was still grasping at other things to define who I was. And for a long time, my job was my identity. It's all I did. As a journalist, we wake up and we hit the ground running and you're doing all of the things and you get home and you're still plugged in.
You're on social media, you're looking at the newscast, you're trying to figure out what you're going to do the next day, and there's never any time for you to really connect with you. And there's no self-care there. There's nothing. And so for a while there, my self-worth was equal to my job. It was very much aligned and connected to that. And I got to a point where I just felt not lost, but it felt like something was missing. Or that I wasn't living up to some type of standard. And that became an issue for me. That leads to depression, that leads to anxiety, that leads to striving, that leads to burnout. And all of those things were very true for me. And so I'm in a season now for the past couple of years where I've been looking at, where does that come from?
Why do we go through this and try and grasp at all these other things? Where is that? And for me, the reason I was grasping at those other things for self-worth was imposter syndrome. And once I realized that that was the case, a lot of things started to change for me. Now, I'm not saying that I'm cured and everything's great and now I do have confidence out of the xu. But there's an inconsistency there. And so that's been my journey thus far.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:06:53] Hmm. Thank you so much for sharing that, because I think so many people will relate, right? Will relate to trying to find a sense of self-worth in career, right? And experiencing success, but then feeling like something is missing and something is off. And still sort of having this tension between I feel confident in some ways, but then I still feel like an imposter in other ways and I still don't feel worthy enough. And I think that that's like a tension that confuses a lot of people. And so I'm so glad you're sharing that you've had that experience because I think it is normal, but we don't talk about it. I think that the narrative is often well if you feel like an imposter, right? Or if you have low self-worth, that means that you have no confidence ever at all. But that's usually not how it looks. And sometimes there's confidence on the outside, but on the inside, you don't feel as confident.
Bre Clark [00:07:49] Yeah.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:07:49] You want to say more about that?
Bre Clark [00:07:51] Well, yeah. I mean, not just journalists. Everyone, we're expected to look all put together. We have everything put together. And if you're hurting you keep that inside. You don't let that out. You let that out somewhere else. And while it is important to be mindful of who you're sharing with and where you share, holding all of that in, that's not healthy. It's not healthy, and it's not healthy for the people that you're around. You are essentially, short-changing them. They're not getting all of you, they're not experiencing all of you, and therefore they feel like something is wrong with them. Because they're comparing. And so that's what I've found. I've had a lot of people come up to me and they say, oh my gosh, I would think that you were just fine and confident and everything was going great, and you have a check by your name and all of that. But when it comes down to it, just like everybody else I'm dealing with stuff, I'm trying to figure it out. I'm trying to go through this life and be the best version of myself, but also give myself grace and confidence. I can have that, but it doesn't mean I have to have it all the time.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:09:03] Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think, having this disconnect between the inside and the outside is really common. And I really appreciate what you said about what other people perceive because we are so often as we know, comparing the inside of our lives to the outside of other people's lives, but we're not thinking about the fact that other people are doing the same thing for us to us and with us, right? And so if we never show the process, the messy middle, the challenge, the insecurities, and it's not saying that you need to post every insecurity on social media, right? I wouldn't actually recommend that because it can be a rough place out there and you don't know who's going to respond. But the idea of like if we could show up honestly and authentically, not only is that helpful for us because it allows us to be true to who we are, it also allows other people to fully accept us. And it gives other people permission to be their full authentic selves who are in process, who have a messy middle. And so it's incredibly powerful when we have the courage to do that.
Bre Clark [00:10:12] Yeah. Yeah. There's so much power in it. And I think people underestimate how much power is in there because, for the longest time, we've said that's weakness. Oh, that's it's weak for you to do that. It's weak for you to share what you're going through. It's weak for you to even seek help for that. And that's not the case. It takes a lot of strength to own up to what's really happening with you and still move forward and walk in confidence. It takes a lot of strength to do that. So that's what I tell people. That's where I go when they come to me.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:10:45] Yes. It takes courage, right? Because, I think we often do think like if you're going to therapy or you're getting coaching like that means you're weak, you need help, right? And I'm like well, the alternative is either sort of white-knuckling your way through, which doesn't feel good, and then other people, turn to drugs, turn to alcohol, turn to other forms of sort of addiction or numbing, right? Because they don't know how to cope, or they don't know how to work through it, or they're not being given the support that they have to deal with the stressors of life. And so to actually turn to someone for support or to a community for support is incredibly courageous. And it's much more courageous than just ignoring the challenges or the issues that you might be facing.
Bre Clark [00:11:30] Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. With imposter syndrome, I am learning that it takes a lot of mental strength to move past that because it's the biggest mind game. It's this mind game that tells you that people are going to find out who you are, who you really are. And when they find out you're going to lose something, it's going to come at a cost to you when it's actually the opposite. Not pushing past that, not having that shrimp to say, okay, I am going to tell people what's going on with me, or I am going to acknowledge what's going on with me and seek a group of like-minded people to deal with this. That helps you go against that mind game that gives you the strength that you need to say, hey, these thoughts, I dunno about them. They're not, are they right? Are they not right? Where am I? And to fight against that mind game, that takes a lot of strength.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:12:32] Yeah. And I think the other power of going to people, especially when you're experiencing imposter syndrome, is that often when we feel like imposters, we ignore the truth of who we are and we ignore our strengths, our gifts and our accomplishments, we overlook all of those things. And we are just focused on, I sent this email to this person or to this group of people and I made a mistake and or whatever it is. Like maybe it's a bigger mistake. And when we can go to other people, they can say, well, I actually see all of you, like yeah, you might have made that mistake, but you also contributed this. You did that, you accomplished this, you helped me with that. You did this, right? And so they can often hold that truth in a way that we struggle to access when we are experiencing imposter syndrome. And I'm so glad you brought the conversation back there because I'd love for you to just share how do you conceptualize and think about imposter syndrome. You just talked a little bit about how it could show up mentally, but talk a little bit more about how you think about it.
Bre Clark [00:13:39] Well, so I first heard the term years ago, and I put it on the shelf after I was doing research on this book here in Austin for women who are in STEM fields, science, technology, engineering, and math. And there was a young woman, she had just started her career in computer programming. And she said I thought I was failing at everything. I thought that I wasn't doing something right or I wasn't smart enough, even though I was making these good grades, I was surrounded by all these people. And she was one of the few women in her profession. I mean she saw some women from time to time, but majority of the people that she saw, her colleagues, they were men. And what she realized after finally opening up about how she felt was that the men felt that way too.
They just weren't talking about it, or it was an external force that made them feel that way. They were like oh, this was graded too hard or I wasn't given enough time to do this. It was all those external things, not, I'm not good enough. I didn't do this right. Maybe there's something wrong with me. Maybe I'm not cut out for this. Those were the types of things that she was hearing. And as she was explaining this, I thought, oh my gosh, I think I've felt that way, at times. And then I put it on the shelf and I just never revisited it because I didn't completely understand it. And so as I went through life and started meeting with people in my industry, in particular, other journalists who were struggling with, am I good enough to bring information to people?
Am I good enough to be on camera? Am I good enough to do all the facets of this job? Because it's not just showing up and looking pretty, it's editing and writing and producing and all these skills that you're having to master or at least understand to be able to do your job. And so I was meeting these people and I started recognizing it. And I was like, wait a minute, this sounds a lot like imposter syndrome. And so I started doing more of the research and I'm like yeah, this is what a lot of us are dealing with. And a lot of us think it's depression and anxiety or some of these other things. And while that might be the case for some people, while they may very well be dealing with depression and anxiety, for a lot of them, it boils down to no, you're actually dealing with imposter syndrome.
It's running a rapid and you're not dealing with it. And so that is something that resonated with me. And I started to look more into this. And when I decided to make a career shift and was approached to do a talk show, I said, who am I to do a talk show? Who want me to do a talk show? And I sat there and I was talking to people and I was like yeah, that's just my imposter syndrome. And a light bulb went off, no, this is what we need to talk about. This is what the show needs to be about. If anything else, now I need to be my true self. Now I need to share what's going on. And that's just a part of my journey. And so this show is for me just as much as it is for everybody else that I'm sharing it with.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:16:37] Yeah. And I think it's really powerful that you sort of recognized imposter syndrome when you were talking to people because the irony of imposter syndrome is that around 70% of people sort of report experiencing it. And yet when we feel like imposters, we feel like we are the only ones. And often what we make up in our heads, or what people make up in their head is they think they're imposters, right? Like they're struggling with imposter syndrome. I'm a real imposter
They're fine, but it's me, right? And there's this sense of isolation that comes through as we were just talking about. And I think it's so powerful that you've decided to focus your talk show on talking to people about imposter syndrome and really bringing it out into the open. Because the more we can name and normalize it, the easier it is to start working, to move out of it, versus believing that it's a truth about who we're.
Bre Clark [00:17:39] Yeah. It's funny that you said I'm the real imposter. Because that's funny. That's kind of how the name for the show came about, The Real Deal. Because you're walking around and you're thinking, I'm fake. I'm a fraud. I'm not a real person. And my husband and I when we were talking about this, we thought it was so funny because it's just like true imposters, people who were really running a con game, they would never think I'm an imposter. They would never want to acknowledge it whatsoever or have those thoughts because that messes with their con, it messes up their con. And most people, I believe people are genuinely good. They are going to have this thought, well, oh my goodness, they're going to find out I‘m an imposter. Let me continue to fake everybody. And oh my gosh. Because there's this guilt that comes along with that as well.
Con artist, they don't feel guilty, they don't, so I challenge people and I'm like if you're feeling guilty, if you're feeling some type of shame or something, and if your self-worth is being hurt by this, more than likely you are not an imposter. You're not running a con, you're not running fraud. And it's probably the opposite. And so what I have people do is usually just write down these thoughts. I say, write down what it is that you're thinking right next to it. Write down all of your accomplishments that have happened despite you feeling that way. And if you can write those down, then you are not an imposter. If you were really an imposter, you wouldn't be able to write down any accomplishments. It would be so and so-and-so did this and I took credit for it. It'd be so-and-so did this. And I just kind of helped a little bit with it. It would be those things. It wouldn't be, yeah, I did this report, but I was lucky. No, that doesn't happen.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:19:23] I totally agree with you. I think so often people feel like I'm just tricking everyone into thinking I'm good at this, right? And I like to sort of like amplify this and be like okay, so how would you trick people into thinking you're good at your job? Would that be by doing a good job? You know what I mean? Unless you're actually paying someone to do the work for you, right? And saying it's your work and somebody else is doing that memo or that report or whatever like you are doing it, which means you are the one who's doing a good job, right? And so really helping people, like you're saying, challenge this because your mind will say, oh, they're just saying you did a good job to be nice. Oh, they're just saying because oh, you didn't really it will just continue to diminish and dismiss accomplishments, affirmations, all the things that you're doing. And so it really does take intention to challenge that and to say, well, what have I done that contributed to this success? And it doesn't mean that you have to be arrogant, and it doesn't mean that you can't acknowledge how other people supported you or helped you, or mentored you. And it's so important to own your part of it, right? Like to own your role in the success because you did contribute to it.
Bre Clark [00:20:44] Yeah. Yeah. I think that, and that goes back to the self-worth is do I believe that I am capable? Do I, why is it that I'm attributing all these other things to success? Is it because I've found worth in those things to define who I am? Or am I rooted enough in me as just a person, just a living, breathing person? Is that person worthy? If they're doing nothing, is that person worthy? Without all these other things, the answer should be yes. And when you accept that as a yes, it's much easier for you to recognize that these thoughts are just thoughts. They're not real. There's something that I need to deal with. There's something I need to talk to somebody about and figure out what is the root cause of this, and how do I as a person recognize that I am worthy and that I am not an imposter.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:21:40] Yeah. And I think about self-worth issues as sort of a root cause of imposter syndrome. And I think you're making that link too, right? That if you don't feel worthy of success, if you don't feel like you have something to contribute because of who you are, not just what you do, right? If you don't value your wisdom, your intelligence, all of those things that you're much more likely to feel like an imposter. And yes, there are also external forces that communicate, you don't belong here, especially if you're from an underrepresented group, if you're a person of color, if you're a woman, et cetera, right? But all of these sort of, there's external forces and then there's our internal thoughts. And if we feel unworthy in general, then you experience the success, but you don't feel worthy and you don't feel like you deserved it.
So then you feel I'm an imposter. I shouldn't have this, something went wrong. I just got lucky, right? And so a lot of the work that I help people do is how do you embrace your self-worth so that when you work towards something, one, you don't overwork towards it because you're desperate to prove that you're worthy or sort of proof, you can't work your way out of imposter syndrome, right? So you work in a sustainable way. And two, that when the success comes, you feel worthy of it and you say, yes, this is great. I'm excited, I feel happy. I feel grateful, versus, oh my gosh, I didn't deserve this. I don't know if they find out they're going to take it away and I'm tricking everybody. And so I think that self-worth work is the sort of deeper level to some of the imposter syndrome work.
And certainly working on imposter syndrome can be a really good place to start. A really good place to kind of work towards feeling more worthy in a professional setting and then kind of do some of the deeper work around self-worth in other aspects. You shared one of the things that you recommend people do, which is sort of like two things, write down the thoughts, right? So you actually see them. And that's really a powerful strategy that's used a lot in therapy, right? Is like let's get the thoughts out of your head because when they're in your head, they feel very true. And very factual, right? Like no fake news here. Let's get the thoughts out.
Bre Clark [00:24:01] I am sure, they will say fake news.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:24:05] Right? You can see, is this true? Like I'm a failure. I sent the wrong email, so I'm going to be fired. Unless you sent an email that is actively aggressive, offensive and harmful, you're probably not going to be fired over an email. And so it's like, get it out of your head like you're saying, Bre, and then also write down your accomplishments and own them, right? Because usually, we have more accomplishments than we actually acknowledge. So I wonder if there are other things that you have found help people in your own life, have found help you overcome imposter syndrome in your conversations with successful people? What are the other things that you see as helpful in overcoming imposter syndrome?
Bre Clark [00:24:53] Yeah, avoiding isolation. Just avoiding isolating yourself. I have a text thread with seven other women. We are all very similar in what we do, but there's also strengths and weaknesses that are very diverse in our group. We're very diverse women of color that talk to each other about the things that we're dealing with. So that when one of us is having those feelings, not all of us suffer from imposter syndrome, but when I'm suffering from those feelings, I say, hey guys, this is what I'm thinking. And I just put it out there. I don't say, do you think this is true? Do you align with this? I don't ask those questions. I just say, this is how I'm feeling and I've given all of them permission to speak into that. And what I've learned is that I can't take that permission back.
Once you give that permission, that permission is given to them unless they're being harmful. But most of the time, people that love you, that you've given permission to do that, they're not going to do that. And so I tell them, you have permission to speak life into what I'm saying. You have permission to speak the opposite and speak worthiness into that and bring to my intention what really is happening. And nine times out of 10 is, well, Bre, look at what you've done this week. Look at, your child was sick. You helped get them better. You went to work. You're in the middle of moving, you unpacked your house. All of these things that I'm doing on top of the thing that I'm laser-focused on because I do believe that people with imposter syndrome have tunnel vision.
They only see their accomplishments in where they want to excel. They don't see all the life things that are happening. And that's what I've been talking about when I talk about separating your self-worth from that thing because it unfolds this way as well. If I don't just think about my job as being accomplishments for me, a measure of success from, hey, I did the project, I got the thing done, or I got the bonus. Those are measures of success. But there are other things that don't have a black and white measure of success where you are excelling in your life. If you woke up and you fed somebody today, you accomplished something. If you sent somebody a text message, you have no idea what those ripple effects are of you just living and breathing. Oprah says this all the time, and she got this from Maya Angelou, you'll never know your legacy. You'll never know it because it is all of the people that you have come across and impacted throughout your entire life. And there's no way of you knowing what those ripples looked like. There's no way. So when your self-worth is just in me being a person and living and breathing and trying to do good.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:27:57] Yes.
Bre Clark [00:27:57] When you attach your self-worth to that, then it doesn't matter if you sent that email and it was awful and it probably wasn't, but let's say it was awful. It doesn't matter. Because guess what? You fed somebody today, you woke up today, you shined your light today, you did something that was important, whether you know it or not.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:28:19] Yeah. I love that. I often say that our self-worth is about who we be in the world more than what we do in the world. And I think your examples just really touch on that. It's like, did you nourish somebody, right? Did you connect to someone? Did you uplift someone? Did you shine your light? And that's much more important than the just the doing of things. Also what you said makes me think about my work at the University of Chicago. So I spent four years working in the counseling center at the University of Chicago. So I was doing therapy with their undergraduate and graduate students. So University of Chicago is in the top three universities in the country. So it is very highly ranked, very, very intense academically. And often these students are incredibly high achievers and they are very singularly focused on their academic performance.
And that is challenging because as you're saying when we lose connection from ourselves as a whole person, and when one area of our life becomes the make or break, right? Like if I don't get a good grade, if I make a mistake as a mom, if I, like whatever area it is, if that becomes all of us and we lose touch with the fact that we're a whole human and we're in a lot of different roles, then it becomes overwhelming because there's so much pressure on this area of life. You have to get the A, you have to get the promotion, you have to be a perfect “mom whose child is never upset,” like impossible. And so we put this pressure on ourselves and we get, as you said, tunnel vision because we lose focus on the fact that, you know what, yeah.
Momming may be really hard right now, right? Like your kid may be having a hard time. There may be there's transitions, there may be a lot of things going on, and that may not be going as well as you want. And you also maybe have a partner. You have other family members that you're showing up for, you have friends, you maybe have a job or career, right? Like those other things. And remembering that all of those spaces and places are where you show up and you share, and none of them need to be, make or break because you're a full person, I think is incredibly helpful and powerful to help people move out of imposter syndrome.
Bre Clark [00:30:51] Oh yeah. I totally agree. Yeah. It takes a lot to move out of it. Let's just say that I think this conversation has been a perfect example of, it takes a lot of strength and hard work to come out of imposter syndrome, but it is possible. It's a daily doing of trying to figure out what area do I need to work on today.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:31:13] Yeah. And I'd love for you to share some of the insights that you've gained from some of the conversations you've had with successful people. And I'm sort of specifically thinking about, in my experience talking with lots of groups of people about imposter syndrome and lots of very successful people about imposter syndrome, you can't success your way out. I should probably say you can't succeed your way out of imposter syndrome. And I wonder if that truth is reflected in your experience talking with successful people.
Bre Clark [00:31:47] Yeah. My insight has been that everybody is dealing with something. It might not be imposter syndrome, but I've met quite a few people who are, and I think more people are being vocal about that. I'm learning that overworked does not equal success. A lot of people think that, it equals burnout. And burnout equals other things, negative things, mental illness, physical illness, isolation, those types of things that you deal with. There's no fulfillment that you get with trying to overwork towards success. The insight that I've actually got is once people finally decided that they were going to root themselves in knowing that they were worthy, no matter what, full stop. That success found them, success found those people. Once I finally stopped striving as a journalist, that's when things opened up for me.
That's when I came to my full self and people noticed, I would get emails from people saying, oh my goodness, you look so happy. What's going on? Or hey, did you lose weight? Oh, are you glowing? Like those types of things. No, I did not lose weight. I had gained 10 pounds. But to those people, I looked healthy and happy and whole. And it's not a perfect thing. We don't bat a thousand, none of us do. There are still days where we feel like we're not living up to where we're living up, but that's normal. That's okay. The other thing I realized is there are people who think they're suffering from imposter syndrome and they are not. They like oh, I'm having some self-doubt about this particular thing, and it's a new thing.
I got this new job and I'm not really sure if I'm good enough for it. And I say, well, do you feel like that in other areas? Is this a new thing? I do some investigating, and I'm learning that there are people who are out there who are this kind of becoming a buzz phenomenon who are attaching themselves to that, which is fostering thoughts that they wouldn't have otherwise. But I'm learning that success will find you when you are at peace, when you feel like you have self-worth, it will come. It's not something that you have to strive for. Work does come along with it, but striving for it, continually striving for it, that doesn't bring you the success that you're looking for. So that's one of the biggest insights that I've found is that people just doing their thing and doing what you love.
I think one thing at this moment in time, more than any other moment in time, people are realizing that they no longer want to do things that they do not love, right? I'm not saying like paying bills and taking care of children, you have to do those things. But they're not going to devote all of their time and energy to something that they don't want to do. And that is okay. And a lot of people are finding success because they're finally doing what they want to do. They're selling things on Etsy, they're traveling the world. They're going to restaurants and blogging about that. They're doing the things that they love and it's bringing them joy and fulfillment. And I think we're seeing a real shift for people who are dealing with imposter syndrome.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:35:18] Yeah. I love so much of that. I'm just going to repeat, say it again for the people in the back, overwork does not lead to success. It leads to burnout. I fully agree, right? And all of what you're saying is something I've experienced in my own life, right? That when I got out of the overworking and when I was doing work that felt aligned with my gifts and my strengths that was aligned with my values and my mission in this world, then guess what? I worked less and I started making more, right? And you'd start attracting, right? That's another way to say what you're saying is you attract opportunities, you attract success, right? And you're not like hustling and grinding, hustling and grinding for it, and grinding hustle, right? You're like, okay, I'm going to do my work. I'm going to do my part.
I'm going to trust that what's meant to come to me will come to me and that I'll be ready when it comes. And when it does come, you're not burned out, exhausted, frustrated, anxious because you haven't slept, undernourished, all of those things, so that you can't even really take advantage of the opportunity. You're rested, you've played, you've enjoyed yourself. So that's one of the things I think it's scary, right? For those of us who have spent our lives being the type A high achieving, front-of-the-class, A student, it is scary and uncomfortable to shift out of that mode, right? And I'm not saying you release all of the things that have made you successful to this point, but to shift to a mode that's more about I do what I need to do, and then I do a lot of being.
And then I don't overwork myself and I don't think about my success as being based on the number of hours I put in, right? And so I think that, be gracious with yourself when you're making that shift because it is uncomfortable and it is a bit of a leap of faith. The other thought I had when you were talking about success is I think people are also starting to create a more holistic vision of success, right? It's not just what society says, which is make six figures, right? Have a stable job with health insurance benefits. And that's great, and make sure you have a partner and a kid or two, right? But there are more holistic versions of what does success look like for me? Right? What financially do I want? What do I want in terms of community and friendship and partner, family? What do I want in terms of lifestyle, right? Because for some people they'd love to make less and travel more, right? That feels like success. And so I think we're hopefully getting out of a space where it's like, this is the image of success that everybody should strive to regardless of whether or not it actually fits.
Bre Clark [00:38:10] Yeah. I completely agree with that. I am a living walking testament to having a husband, a child, making over six figures, being able to go on vacation, doing all those things. They do not bring you happiness, and they do not bring you self-worth. They do not. I've had all those things and I've had all those things and been very depressed, very anxious. And it just made me want to strive for more because I'm like, oh, I thought this was going to make me happy. Oh, I'm not happy yet. Well, let me do more. And started working myself into the ground, or just finding myself low, just low because it's just like I attained the dream and it's not making me happy. Something is wrong. Maybe it's me. And that it was not the case. It wasn't me. It was just, I had put my self-worth in things that are going to expire. Things that are always going to be the Hollywood version that we thought it was. Because children aren't just happy and whole and all the things like they are on those movies.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:39:18] A lot of crying
Bre Clark [00:39:20] Yes. It's a lot of crying, a lot of poop, a lot of those things. It's a lot of that. And so the glamor that we think, I mean, and the glamor that people see, I mean, I have been guilty of showing people more of the glam than what reality is. And I'm trying to come out of that and show people more of this is real life. Like my child is being crazy today and my hair looks a mess and I haven't showered. I'm trying to show people more of that because that's real life and that is okay.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:39:51] Mm-hmm.
Bre Clark [00:39:52] I'm still worthy at the end of the day.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:39:55] Yes. Yes. And I mean, I think that is so real, and I'm so glad you shared that because most of us hold this fantasy that if we get the outside of our lives looking the way society says it should look, the inside of our life will magically be happy. And what you're describing is what so many of us experience, which is you get to this pinnacle, right? Like you get to this like okay, it was just this, it was just the marriage. It was just the degree, it was just the job. It was just the kid. And you're like wait like that didn't work, right? And the challenge is if we start saying, well then something is wrong with me that it didn't work. And the hope is that instead, we can say, oh, as I sometimes like to say the game is rigged, right?
It was never going to work. It's not that you did it wrong, it's that you were set up on a path that was never going to give you what you wanted. And actually, it's an inside job, actually, the work is internal. Actually, we have to get right with ourselves, claim the truth of who we are, claim our unconditional self-worth, and work from the inside out. And that is what's going to give us that spring of joy that is sustainable, right? That is lasting no matter what's happening on the outside of our lives. And that's not to say you'll never have a hard day or a hard time or feel stressed or any of that, but it feels different when you don't start blaming yourself for the things that are happening in your life that are challenging.
Bre Clark [00:41:34] Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. Yeah.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:41:37] Yeah. There's just so much that we're talking about. There's one other point that you brought up that I wanted to kind of highlight, and that was sort of distinguishing between the feeling of not knowing or being a beginner and being an imposter. And I think it's so important that you brought that up because people often think because I don't know, that means I can't do it, or I'll never be able to do it, or I don't deserve to be here. I can't contribute. And I think it's really important for people to, and this is one of the recommendations that I share when I'm coaching people and helping people with imposter syndrome, is allow yourself to learn. You are not supposed to know everything, especially not with a new job, right? But own what you do know, right? Because just because you're starting something new doesn't mean that you're starting from kindergarten again.
There are things, there are skills, there's wisdom, there's strategies you've developed from other experiences. So own that and then allow yourself to learn and be a beginner, right? And give space for that feeling of I don't know, because that's part of learning. Give space for that without making a conclusion. I shouldn't be here. I don't deserve to be here. I tricked everybody, right? Like without concluding that you're an imposter. Because learning is a part of life and it's how we grow. And in any new stage of your life or career, you're going to be learning and you're not going to know everything. And that's normal.
Bre Clark [00:43:06] Yeah. It's funny because imposter syndrome doesn't look the same for everybody. And I think that's something that I've been trying to let people know is that there are so many different type of “imposters” out there and they don't all look the same or think the same and it doesn't impact them all the same. The big difference is between men and women, but even among women, you have people who are like, I'm Superwoman. I should be able to do all the things, or I'm an imposter or what you're talking about. I'm the expert. I should know everything. And if I don't know everything, then oh my gosh, I'm an imposter. And you aren't going to know everything. You are always going to be learning and whatever you're studying is always going to be changing and evolving because that is the way life works.
It's just that's just what it is. New things arrive. We get technology, we get new technology. I mean, there's a new iPhone all the time. And you know that's just how life is. There's newness and there's beauty in that. And so I think that some people, when they're dealing with imposter syndrome, it's harder for them when those new things arise and it's like oh, I have this new job. But I challenge them to look at the confidence that they had to even apply in the first place. You had confidence to make that application, you had confidence to go to the interview, you had confidence to accept the job, have confidence to try it and see how it works and if it fails, so what? So what? You'll still live and breathe and the world will still turn right. And some people don't like that because it sounds very bootstrappy like pick up yourself by the bootstraps. But no, it's not that. It's not, not acknowledging your feelings about it.
Because you are going to be sad, you're going to be upset, you're going to be frustrated. But don't take those feelings and internalize them and abuse yourself with them and say, I am not worthy because that's the shift there, that's the difference. When it comes to that. But then there's also people out there who are starting something new and it's not imposter syndrome. You are just starting something new and it's scary. Take that chance anyway. And I guarantee you if you just leave that imposter thought on the shelf and it doesn't resurface, that's not what you were dealing with. And you can move forward, you can continue and deal with whatever other thing you're dealing with in that moment. But I like for people to know that there's a difference in that.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:45:40] Yeah. I think that's such a great distinction and I think we're going to end on that note. This has been so great to talk with you-
Bre Clark [00:45:50] Thank you for having me.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:45:51] … and to hear your insights. I know that people are going to want to check out your talk show. So will you share how people can connect with you in general, where people can find and watch the talk show? So they can keep learning from you.
Bre Clark [00:46:05] So Instagram, where we're big for connecting with me, like there's a tap bio you can get to the YouTube channel, that is where the show is. We wanted this season to be free for everyone. We didn't want someone to need a premium account somewhere to access what we were talking about since there's so little information in the space. So you can go on YouTube. There's seven episodes with seven very different people talking about their experience with imposter syndrome. I was just very lucky for everybody to just kind of come together and say yes. And we're very pleased with it. And so you can find the show on YouTube or you can just go to Instagram and all of my handles are at Bre Clark TV. Bre with one E so B-R-E Clark TV, that's where you can find me on all the things. And there's also a website breclarktv.com or therealdeal.show. That's where you can find all my stuff.
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:47:00] Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Bre. It's been a joy to talk with you and I know that our listeners have gotten so much out of it. And they will love checking out your talk show and all the other content you're putting out into the world.
Bre Clark [00:47:13] Yeah. Thank you so much. This is great.
[cheerful music starts]
This episode was produced by Crys & Tiana and the music is by Wataboi.
Cali by Wataboi https://soundcloud.com/wataboi
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Have you ever experienced imposter syndrome? Do you ever feel confident on the outside but not confident on the inside? Even if it feels like you’re alone, you’re not! Around 70% of people have struggled with imposter syndrome.
In this episode, I welcome Bre Clark, a Multimedia Journalist and Talk Show Host. Bre just launched a new talk show called The Real Deal where she unmasks imposter syndrome and speaks with "successful people" about confidence, self-worth, and their personal battles with imposter syndrome.
Listen in as Bre and I talk about the challenges of living with imposter syndrome, how it’s linked to self-worth, and a few strategies to help you overcome imposter syndrome and feel fulfilled in your career and beyond. Bre also shares what she’s learned about imposter syndrome from interviewing "successful people" on The Real Deal.
“A lot of people are finding success because they’re finally doing what they want to do. They’re doing the things that they love and it’s bringing them joy and fulfillment. I think we’re seeing a real shift for people who are dealing with imposter syndrome.” - Bre Clark
So often, we compare the inside of our lives to the outside of other people’s lives. What we forget is that other people are doing the same to us. If we can show up honestly and authentically, it not only allows us to be true to who we are, it also allows others to fully see and accept us and be their true selves, too.
It takes courage to embrace the messiness inside and the negative thoughts and feelings we have about ourselves. “It takes a lot of mental strength to move past [imposter syndrome] because it’s the biggest mind game,” Bre says. “It’s this mind game that tells you that people are going to find out who you really are and when they find out, you’re going to lose something, it’s going to come at a cost to you, when it’s actually the opposite.”
The more we can acknowledge and normalize imposter syndrome, the easier it is to work through it and move past it. When we do that, we can finally stop believing it’s the truth of who we are.
Furthermore, understanding and overcoming your imposter syndrome can be a really great place to start in feeling more worthy in a professional setting, or any other area of your life.
Whether you’re feeling imposter syndrome at work, as a parent, or in your relationship or friendships, let’s explore some tips and advice that will help you get out of the imposter syndrome mindset.
What Bre Learned From Interviewing “Successful People” About Confidence, Self-Worth, and Imposter Syndrome:
Everyone is dealing with something.
Overwork does not lead to success or fulfillment, it leads to burnout.
Once people finally decided to root themselves in their unconditional worthiness, success found them. Success will find you when you are at peace in your self-worth. It’s not something you have to continuously strive for.
Success is not about perfection.
People often think they’re experiencing imposter syndrome when they’re really experiencing self-doubt.
It’s extremely important to do what you love. When you do work that aligns with your values, strengths, and passions, you will work less, make more, and feel more fulfilled and successful in life.
Tips and Advice on Overcoming Imposter Syndrome:
Seek a person or group of people you can share your feelings with. Give them permission to speak worthiness into you. People dealing with imposter syndrome often feel isolated or alone in that feeling, so getting support is key to getting out of the imposter syndrome mindset!
Write down your thoughts and feelings related to imposter syndrome. Next, write down all the accomplishments you’ve made despite you feeling that way and own them. If you were really an imposter, you wouldn’t be able to write down any accomplishments.
Separate your worth from your accomplishments or outcomes. Self-worth issues are the root cause of imposter syndrome. If you don’t feel worthy of success, if you don’t value your intelligence or feel like you have something to contribute, you’re much more likely to feel like an imposter.
Reconnect with all the different parts of yourself. When you lose connection with your whole self and when one area of your life (career, parenthood, etc.) becomes your entire life, there’s so much pressure on you to succeed. That tunnel vision can create an overwhelming sense that this is make or break, leading to feelings of imposter syndrome.
What does success look like for YOU? Stop comparing your life to other people’s success and figure out what success means to you.
Learn to distinguish between the feeling of being an imposter and the feeling of not knowing or being a beginner. Give yourself the space to learn from being a beginner. That’s a big part of succeeding in life! Just because you’re a beginner or you don’t know something doesn’t mean you don’t deserve to be there.
Remember, who you are is more important and more powerful than what you do. It takes a lot of strength and hard work to get out of imposter syndrome, but it is possible.
Want to start building your community of support? Join the next cohort of the Unconditionally Worthy Group Coaching Program, starting April 17th, 2023. Spots are filling up fast, so head over to https://www.unconditionallyworthy.com/program to learn more and apply!
About Bre Clark (she/her):
Bre Clark is a seasoned multimedia journalist and news personality. With a decade of experience in broadcast news and public relations, Bre has interviewed countless politicians, experts, celebrities, social media influencers, and everyday people, where she discovered most were searching for confidence and lacking self worth. Bre just launched a new talk show called The Real Deal where she unmasks imposter syndrome and speaks with "successful people" about confidence, self worth, and their personal battles with imposter syndrome.
To connect further with Bre Clark:
Visit her website: https://www.breclarktv.com
Follow her on Instagram & Watch The Real Deal: http://instagram.com/BreClarkTV
Connect with her on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BreClarkTV
Watch The Real Deal and subscribe on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOd4HJwEepdxe2xqldrn8yA
This episode was produced by Crys & Tiana.
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