This is How You Release Perfectionism with Dr. Rebecca Hubbard
— EPISODE 97 —
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[cheerful music starts]
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:00:21] Welcome to the Unconditionally Worthy Podcast. In this podcast, I will guide you on your journey to connect with the true source of your self-worth. Each week we'll discuss barriers to unconditional self-worth, the connection between self-worth and relationships, self-worth practices you can apply to your life. And how to use self-worth as a foundation for living courageously. I'm your host, Dr. Adia Gooden, a licensed clinical psychologist, dance enthusiast, and a dark chocolate lover who believes deeply that you are worthy unconditionally.
Adia Gooden (00:10.286)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Unconditionally Worthy Podcast. Today I am talking to Dr. Rebecca Hubbard, who is a clinical psychologist with a private practice called Grounded Wellness in Chicago. And we are talking about releasing perfectionism, how we're navigating new motherhood, and how comedic yoga can be a healer and a teacher for all of us. And so it's a really powerful.
thoughtful episode that I know you're going to get so much out of. So dive into the show, listen to the end, and let us know what you think. Let's get into the show.
Adia Gooden (00:06.102)
I am really excited to welcome Dr. Rebecca Hubbard onto the podcast today. Dr. Rebecca is a licensed clinical psychologist, Kemetic yoga instructor, former student athlete, and recovering perfectionist. She has been on her own wellness journey
since she was a teenager and uses her personal experience and professional training to co-create spaces for healing and growth in her Chicago-based private practice. So I'm so excited to have this conversation with you, Dr. Rebecca, because we follow each other on social media. We are both in Chicago. We're both psychologists. And so it's really fun to have you on the podcast and actually finally have an in-person, in real life, real time.
conversation with you. So welcome to the podcast.
Dr. Rebecca (00:56.855)
Thank you so much for having me. And yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you in real life now and not just on social media.
Adia Gooden (01:06.174)
Exactly. Well, I'd love to start our conversation by what I call diving into the deep end and asking you to share a little bit about your own self-worth journey.
Dr. Rebecca (01:21.449)
Thank you for giving me some space to talk about my story. I think that's always a treat and a chance for me to learn too as I'm talking. So I think it's probably important to start with the fact that I grew up in Germany. My dad was in the army and met my mom when he was stationed there. And I think that's important because I firmly believe that our self-worth
is informed by the culture that we're surrounded by. And while there are, you know, there's a lot of overlap, especially in Western civilizations, I do think that there are some nuances to growing up in Germany that have some things to do with what I was taught about what it means to be a worthy person or what self-worth means. So just that as like the backdrop.
Adia Gooden (01:51.895)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (02:18.915)
And I think you remember this probably from the newsletter that I share that Basketball was a very important of my life very important part of my life growing up in part because that is where I distinctly remember cultivating a sense of Worthiness and joy I felt competent for the first time in my life This is also like my teenage years, right? So we're way more aware of like
Adia Gooden (02:40.898)
Hmm
Dr. Rebecca (02:47.523)
how others are perceiving us, how we perceive ourselves, developing our identities, who we are. And so in that time for me, basketball was really the space where I, I felt good about myself. I felt also socially accepted. I had a little bit of a hard time fitting in high school socially. And in Germany, the way that sports are organized,
Adia Gooden (03:08.773)
Thank you.
Dr. Rebecca (03:16.135)
you play in clubs as opposed to four-year high school. So it was a space outside of the place where I didn't feel like I belonged, where I immediately felt like I was welcomed and belonged. So I think that made a really, really big difference to me to have that space. If I didn't have that, I'm actually not sure if I had felt worthy, socially speaking.
Adia Gooden (03:20.183)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (03:38.638)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (03:42.335)
I feel very, very fortunate that I always felt loved in my family. And I got a lot of messages that you might recognize because I think these are very common messages. My parents talked a lot about what it means to be a, and I'll use air quotes, productive member of society. So that our work is a key part of how we are worthy of respect.
Adia Gooden (04:03.106)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (04:12.555)
Um.
Yeah, honor in that way. I also got a lot of classic racial socialization messages from my father about having to work twice as hard than everybody else because, you know, kind of starting from behind was what I was told, which honestly in Germany, this was also Berlin, a very multicultural city, didn't really...
Adia Gooden (04:16.952)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (04:24.406)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (04:33.098)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (04:42.867)
makes sense to me in my environment when I grew up, but when I moved to the U.S. it immediately made sense to me why my dad was, you know, attempting to prepare me for that type of environment because there's a lot of truth to it, especially here in the U.S. Other things that I think I was taught about what it means to be valuable is to be honest.
Adia Gooden (04:44.002)
Hmm
Adia Gooden (04:50.102)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (04:56.366)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (05:09.879)
to not be wasteful. I think that's maybe where German culture seeps in a little bit, like how you manage your resources in a way that's not wasteful was really important. And to be kind, that was also something that my parents both emphasized. So I think with all of those packaged up, I felt like I was...
Adia Gooden (05:22.35)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (05:30.23)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (05:35.915)
you know, in a relatively good position to like embark into life and was hopeful of becoming a person who was worthy. And now looking back, I also understand that, so just to be clear, like I really did not understand this at the time, but like now I know that there were also many messages about coming from a working class background that I think had a lot to do with.
what my parents taught me I needed to do to be this productive member of society. And that there was always like a fear communicated that if you don't do that you won't belong, you will be a burden on society. So work really became a central piece to like what it meant to be worthy. And that eventually led me to burning out often in my life.
Adia Gooden (06:19.797)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (06:27.938)
Hmm
Adia Gooden (06:33.974)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (06:35.071)
Um, and so it's, you know, I've, at some point I started fighting against that, but it's still a journey, like for me to, um, engage with the topic of work or my work in general in a way that my worth is not connected to it is still something that I'm, you know, uh, processing and evolving into. It's not, this is the ongoing journey.
Adia Gooden (06:56.054)
Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (07:02.518)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I love the points that you're making about how our sense of worthiness can be really culturally informed and the values and priorities of a specific culture can then impact how we see ourselves and what we think are the conditions of our worth. And I think, you know, a lot of people will relate to sort of feeling like
work is a place where they have found worthiness or they're trying to disconnect their sense of worth from their work. And you talk about being a recovering perfectionist, and I know you mentioned to me that that's one of the, work is one of the places where sort of perfectionism has shown up most. And so I'm curious if you feel like you sort of took this value of being a productive member of society and working hard and sort of.
that became this like, well, in order to do that, you have to be perfect at it. Can you talk a little bit about what that perfectionism looked and felt like for you?
Dr. Rebecca (08:04.747)
Yeah, I can really say that I slipped into it. You know, it kind of crept up. Because the things that I loved and was naturally talented in, like basketball, like academics, you know, those were things that I also wanted to do. Like I didn't feel like I was compromising my authenticity or, you know, working for someone else when I was doing those things.
Adia Gooden (08:11.287)
Hmm
Adia Gooden (08:28.757)
Mmm.
Dr. Rebecca (08:33.847)
But I think the rewards that we get for those things are enticing in a way that like trapped me and eventually hooked me in a way where I sought perfection because of the rewards, you know, that like just kept piling up the, you know, amount of positive attention and praise from outside of my family, within my family, from everywhere for things like
Adia Gooden (08:41.058)
Mmm.
Adia Gooden (08:47.745)
Mmm.
Dr. Rebecca (09:03.571)
earning a PhD or, you know, that's really one of the more recent ones. But even then, like getting a scholarship to play basketball and how excited people were for me during that, um, really, I think like started to feed this idea like, well, I'll do more of it then. Like I'll do it great. And, and probably a story I told myself was that if I don't do those things, I won't have the
Adia Gooden (09:05.249)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (09:32.159)
respect. I didn't have any evidence for that, but it was a story that I told myself. And so being, you know, not wanting to lose that type of welcoming and affection from other people was a big part of how I kind of fell into wanting to be perfect. And as you know, as you know, perfection is not.
Adia Gooden (09:34.614)
Hmm... Mmhmm...
Adia Gooden (09:52.741)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (10:01.555)
a healthy thing to shoot for.
Adia Gooden (10:03.886)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you've linked it to sort of burnout. So will you share? Because I think it is useful to get like tangible. Like when you think about the times when you were most in the throes of perfectionism, like what did that look like? Like, did that look like not resting, not taking breaks from work? Did it look like always stressing, thinking? Like what if somebody were...
curious and listening and saying, how would I even recognize this in myself? Because I think a lot of people who are caught up in perfectionism think, I just have really high standards. I just want everything to be really good. What's wrong with that? And so it's like, what are some of the signs or the signals that people could look out for that they are sort of in the throes of perfectionism?
Dr. Rebecca (10:33.024)
and
Dr. Rebecca (10:39.695)
Right
Dr. Rebecca (10:50.975)
Mm-hmm. Well, I think everyone's responsible for like knowing their own capacity, right? So I'm not sure that you can always tell from the outside if someone is like really overreaching or just has a different bandwidth at that point in time. Because I will say that as a college athlete, I definitely had a different bandwidth. Like I had the energy to do a lot of these things. I wouldn't say that my...
Adia Gooden (11:04.36)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (11:18.583)
wellness was compromised at that time. But then I kept going after college. And so graduate school was probably the first time where I remember really feeling like, I can't keep going like this. Like this is, I am depleted. And for me, that looked like passing out with junk food on the couch. For me, that looked like
Adia Gooden (11:36.088)
Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (11:42.07)
Hmm
Dr. Rebecca (11:47.443)
uh, showering but not putting lotion on my body because i was too tired i was just like i washed so now that's it that's all i have the energy for um like really not having the energy or the time to do some really basic things to make sure that i was nourished and you know cared for
Adia Gooden (11:52.639)
Mmm.
Adia Gooden (12:15.121)
Mmhmm.
Dr. Rebecca (12:15.775)
you know, sleeping enough, like, I'm talking the basics, you know? Um, so when those kind of fell to the side, I was, I recognized that something was wrong, but I also didn't really know how to not operate that way because again, I felt like the stakes are really high. If I don't, you know, complete all of the extra activities, if I don't.
Adia Gooden (12:18.767)
Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (12:31.51)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (12:43.127)
finish this PhD in five years if I don't, you know. It's...
Adia Gooden (12:46.836)
I'm laughing because I did the same thing when I got to grad school. I gotta finish in five years! And it's just like, why do I make up this?
Dr. Rebecca (12:53.595)
Yeah, and like, why did I, why did I do that? I, and for me, I can tell you, Adia, it was definitely money.
Adia Gooden (13:01.926)
Mmm... Mm-hmm...
Dr. Rebecca (13:03.135)
I was, and after graduate school, I very distinctly, so as you know, the last step is internship, this last year where all you do is practical work. I distinctly remember saying to several people, I am tired of being broke, I'm done with that. And so I'm gonna keep going. The idea of taking a step back meant to be, have not have money longer. And I was like, I can't do this.
Adia Gooden (13:17.55)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (13:23.694)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (13:30.071)
That's real.
Dr. Rebecca (13:31.967)
I just have to push through, but I definitely paid a price for that. Speaking concretely too, I think after graduate school I was also diagnosed with a thyroid disorder and you know, I can't know it for sure, but my form of the story is that it was stress induced. So my body was just fried.
Adia Gooden (13:36.567)
Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (13:44.93)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (13:54.894)
Hmm, mm-hmm. Tired, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, it's interesting, because I did the same thing. I got into grad school, and then with a couple of my classmates was like, we're gonna finish in five years. And it was just like, why? But for me, it was because my sort of barometer bar for worthiness kept moving. And so...
Dr. Rebecca (14:13.81)
lot.
Adia Gooden (14:20.658)
Yeah, I had gotten in grad school, but I still didn't feel worthy. So then we got to do it in five years, right? And we got to finish. We got to get in. We got to get out. We got to do it, you know, like as efficiently as possible. And I reached, you know, a little bit of a breaking point. I think it was like my second year because it was in order to do the five year timeline. And in my program, we had to do a master's thesis and a dissertation. So it was like you have to finish your master's thesis in a certain amount of time. Then you got to take comps. So you got to do your dissertation. Right. So I was on that like.
Dr. Rebecca (14:21.559)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (14:48.274)
road to like master's thesis. And I had this one day where I distinctly remember it because I was living in Bronzeville in Chicago, which is on the south side of Chicago. It was raining. I walked out of my apartment building and I at least thought that I saw worms all over the ground. Now there are a lot of worms that come out of the ground in Chicago when there's rain, but I don't think they were cut. But I was just like panicked and I like ran to the car. And then I was just like, you know, palpitations. And I was like, okay.
We need to go to therapy." That was my first like, okay, this is... And then thankfully through therapy, I was like, oh, I'm trying to be perfect. I'm following my parents' footsteps. That helped me to be like, it's okay to graduate in six years. I feel you on the money thing because that was not fun, but it was just like I needed to shift out of this go, do all the things all the time.
Dr. Rebecca (15:22.031)
I'm not hearing you.
Adia Gooden (15:45.482)
you know, perfectly mowed. I really, you know, resonate with that. And it's not sustainable.
Dr. Rebecca (15:52.211)
No, no, I think that's part of the definition of perfectionism is that it's not attainable, right? So, and then as soon as we set goals for ourselves that are like that, now I definitely see it as really dehumanizing, right? It's dehumanizing to seek perfectionism, or expect it from anyone else. And so that, that's a
Adia Gooden (15:58.614)
Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (16:09.922)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (16:21.551)
costly sacrifice. You're not a human anymore.
Adia Gooden (16:22.402)
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that you pointed out that you sort of like amplify, like emphasize how problematic it is by saying that it's dehumanizing because I don't think that that's how people think about it, but it sort of forces you to look at it. It's like you're requiring yourself to be a robot or to be, to not have human needs for rest, for nourishment, for connection, for, you know, like all these things that we have. You're required to be a robot.
requiring yourself to be perfect and to be human is to not be perfect. And so I like that you're sort of highlighting the fact that when we sort of hold ourselves to these standards of perfectionism, we're dehumanizing ourselves, we're not allowing ourselves to be fully human. And all of that entails, all that entails the good stuff, the hard stuff, right? But to live kind of fully, right? Because I think...
you know, our mind might say, you want to have this perfectly straight and narrow path where you do everything right and everything. But it's like, if life were like that, we would be bored, right? Like if every path you walked was a perfectly paved, narrow sidewalk that had no twists, no turns, no whatever, like you'd eventually be like, okay, like, is there something else? Can I go on a hike?
can I have something else, right? Like that would be dull, but we can try to control our life into this narrow pathway because it feels really hard to tolerate some of the messiness is a messiness of life and the imperfection and the humaness of it all.
Dr. Rebecca (18:02.883)
Right, right, absolutely. I love that, can I go for a hike? Like yeah, we need hikes in this journey for sure. And sometimes I see this a lot with my clients in my practice when I talk about emphasizing their humanity that somehow we've gotten to a point where people register that as like less than. I'm just human, right? As if it's not a miracle.
Adia Gooden (18:26.606)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (18:31.906)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (18:32.747)
you know, as if it's not absolutely a miracle to be human. And that only happens with the hikes and the flaws and the, you know, detours. That's superior, I think, to the other paths. But somehow we're, we put the other things, it's like, oh, well, can you take it down a notch? It's not down, it's up, really.
Adia Gooden (18:41.442)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (18:45.559)
yeah.
Adia Gooden (18:56.078)
Mm-mm, right. Yeah, I mean, I love that you're saying the miracle it is to be human. I mean, it makes me think of that on a couple of levels. One, we're both like new moms, so we've had this experience of like a human life growing inside of you. And first of all, you don't really do anything, but just for me, I ate, I was ravenous. It was like a lot of eating and a lot of sleeping. Those were my tasks to like help this baby.
Dr. Rebecca (19:08.184)
Thank you.
Dr. Rebecca (19:22.307)
Same.
Adia Gooden (19:24.942)
into the world, right? But it's like, this is like a creation. You know what I mean? It's sort of like, it is very magical and miraculous, right? Because there's this like, you know, like how does this even come to be, right? Like how does my body know what to do? How did the cells know how to multiply and duplicate? So you could think about it that way. You could also think about it sort of in terms of your ancestry, right? Like, you know.
being someone, being people who have African ancestry and thinking about enslaved ancestors, right? Like who survived, like people who survived the middle passage, right? Like people who survived slavery, right? Like who kept on living and kept on producing life to be of that legacy. And then you could think about it on like the, like global humanity, you know.
Dr. Rebecca (19:54.691)
and
Adia Gooden (20:19.19)
being part of evolution, right? Like how did humans evolve, right? Like starting from, you know, hundreds of millions of years ago when there were organisms that were a couple of cells, right, to now. And so it's like, it's miraculous, right? Like any way you twist it, turn it, look at it, is it messy? Yeah, it's messy sometimes. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is it miraculous and magical and mystifying? Yes.
Dr. Rebecca (20:47.468)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yoga gives me access to that wonder often, I think. You know, all three levels really that you just named, I feel reminded of definitely as a mom. And before I was fortunate enough to become a mother, yoga did that regularly for me. But you're right. I mean, even now just they're both
Adia Gooden (20:49.678)
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Adia Gooden (21:08.035)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (21:15.891)
you know, both of our kids are really young. So like you see them explore, like learning about the world and all of that's happening with very little input. Like I'm just witnessing and making sure that you're safe, you know? It feels like the, yeah, every day is a miracle, really, when you're paying attention.
Adia Gooden (21:27.694)
Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (21:37.254)
Yeah, and gosh, wouldn't life feel better and doesn't life feel better when we lean into that, right? Like when we lean into the gift of it and the miraculousness of it. And I think we may be sort of, what we're talking about may be answering sort of the next question I was gonna ask you, which is sort of what has helped you to release or what is helping you.
Dr. Rebecca (21:46.411)
Yes.
Adia Gooden (22:04.27)
to release the perfectionism, especially when you feel it sort of like getting stirred up, that urge to keep going, keep pushing, do more, right? Like what helps you to ground into your humanity and release these perfectionistic, you know, ideas and thoughts that make you feel controlled by them.
Dr. Rebecca (22:05.548)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (22:29.419)
Right, right.
Dr. Rebecca (22:34.411)
I have a great therapist. And one of the things he regularly asks me is, what if there were just, what if there were space for, insert non-perfect thing, like whether that's anxiety or, you know, not, or motherhood or any other thing, not looking the way that you thought it would, like your expectations were this, it's not looking like that. What if there were space for that?
Adia Gooden (22:49.41)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (22:57.09)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (23:03.755)
And then I think the thing that really transforms it for me is that, and then don't do anything about it. Because my instinct is still, okay, so now, okay, I made space for this thing, so now how can I respond to myself? Or what can I tell myself to feel better about what's happening? No, just allowing it to be. And I've...
Adia Gooden (23:13.966)
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Adia Gooden (23:25.422)
Mmhmm.
Adia Gooden (23:31.374)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (23:34.247)
built more capacity for that to allow things to be as long as no one's in danger or you know things aren't harmful like in a very clear way. Let it be. See what happens. Yeah coming back to work after motherhood is requiring that of me daily.
Adia Gooden (23:42.504)
Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (23:50.598)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (24:04.711)
I don't know what it's going to look like to be a business owner, be a mom. I'm just going to let it be and keep going week to week and say, like, oh, what am I going to do this week? That's not usually how I plan things or accomplish things. That's very new for me to be so go with the flow, I'll say.
Adia Gooden (24:09.522)
Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (24:22.179)
I'm sorry.
Adia Gooden (24:30.355)
Mmm, mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (24:30.875)
and it's not glamorous or comfortable for me. But the alternative would be to be less present with my baby and I'm like, no. No, I'd rather like let the business be messier. That feels easy, like my son makes it an easier choice.
Adia Gooden (24:33.527)
Mmm, I feel you. I feel you.
Adia Gooden (24:40.738)
Hmm, not gonna do that. Yep.
Adia Gooden (24:48.226)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (24:53.722)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah, so there's sort of this allowing, creating space for the uncertainty, the messiness. And then I think what comes up for me when I think about sort of allowing and creating space and doing less is trust, right? Like trusting myself, you know, trusting the universe, trusting whatever you wanna trust, right? Like...
Dr. Rebecca (25:17.13)
Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (25:22.498)
trusting in something larger than just you doing, right? Because I think what I know is that I have grown up trusting in my ability to get things done, right? Like that, I feel comfort in that. Like if it needs to get, at the end of the day, I can get it done. I can work, I can do it, I can push, right? Like I can make it happen. And so, and not that I'm just like totally throwing that out the window because there are some strengths in like
being able to do things at times. Like sometimes you do wanna do things. And that's not the only thing I wanna trust in because when I only trust in that, then I overwork myself, I over schedule myself, I have a harder time taking breaks, right? Versus like, okay, what's my part to do? What's reasonable to do given my schedule, given my other demands on my time, given my other priorities? And then how do I release the rest and trust?
Dr. Rebecca (25:56.879)
for sure.
Adia Gooden (26:20.386)
that what is meant to come, what is meant to be created, what is meant to happen will happen. And it's not all about me pushing and making it happen.
Dr. Rebecca (26:30.483)
Yep, yep. Oh, that, that word really hits home for me, trust. I can see that for myself as well. I'll probably also throw in patience. And I wish I knew who said this. These are not my words. It's a quote, but like patience is not just about waiting. It's about how you wait. And so,
Adia Gooden (26:42.615)
Mmm.
Adia Gooden (26:55.767)
Mmm.
Dr. Rebecca (26:59.887)
my practice in kinetic yoga really helps me, like in a very physical sense, move slowly, which requires a patience that was very uncomfortable for me when I first started practicing it. Way more so than with other lineages of yoga too, because you know, depending on the style of yoga that you're practicing, sometimes it's like really athletic and can move really fast.
Adia Gooden (27:08.386)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (27:23.791)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (27:26.239)
doesn't actually require you to be patient aside from acquiring skills, but like in the moment that you're doing it, there's no patience really required. So, Kemetic Yoga moves so slow that is also the thing that some people don't like about it, but I'm like, that's where my medicine is for sure, is in the pace of it.
Adia Gooden (27:34.358)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (27:44.278)
Hmm. Yeah, I love that you're saying patience. That's definitely a growth edge for me. Like I talk fast, I think fast, and so I'm like, woo, like, you know, and I think everybody else should be at this, everything else, and it's like, no. Other people are going at their pace. The world is going at its pace, and so that patience. And I'd love for you to, I'm not super familiar with Kemetic yoga. I saw, you know, I've heard the name, and then when I saw it in your bio, I was like, well, let me do a quick.
Dr. Rebecca (28:02.804)
Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (28:14.226)
search of what this is. So I'd love for you to share what is Kemetic yoga and then talk a little bit more about how it is sort of this healing practice and this opportunity to grow into patients and, you know, maybe beyond perfectionism.
Dr. Rebecca (28:30.967)
Yes, yes, I'm happy to. So, Kemetic Yoga was developed by Yaseer Hotep and Dr. Azar Hopi right here in Chicago in the 1970s. So, think 70s black power, we're also, you know, Kwanzaa is popping up. Like this is the time of African resurgence, African centered, you know, practices coming back into our communities. And this is the time, this is like the flavor.
Adia Gooden (28:39.922)
Oh, huh.
Dr. Rebecca (29:00.939)
of the historical moment. And Yassir and his mentor, Dr. Azar Hapi, used what we know from ancient Egypt, which the word for, the ancient word for Egypt is chemit. So hence, Kemetic yoga. So what we know from the way that they talked about energy centers in the body, from postures that we see on temple walls and in papyri,
Adia Gooden (29:28.696)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (29:30.975)
And they combine that with what we know about how energy flows from older practices like Tai Chi and Qigong. So if you think Hatha yoga, Tai Chi, you combine those with an ancient Egyptian spiritual orientation, that's kind of like the recipe for Kemetic yoga. So when you see it being practiced, sometimes...
Adia Gooden (29:38.539)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (29:52.618)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (29:57.591)
the postures will look very familiar to what we know from Indian yoga. But there are also sequences and postures and very importantly, language that is used that is unique to Kemetic yoga and ancient Egyptian and ancient African at its origin. And so, like I mentioned before, one of the things that makes
Adia Gooden (30:18.382)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (30:25.687)
I think distinct from other styles of yoga, and I've practiced a lot of, I've charted them all, I think, is the pace. And so I think when you see even restorative practices, you move into a posture, and then you stay there and breathe deeply for several minutes at a time. That's one way to also help us cultivate patience and slow down, because you're sitting still the whole time, right? That can be hard.
Adia Gooden (30:52.782)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (30:55.071)
In Kemetic yoga, there are some pauses where we stay in postures, but the flow in between postures is so slow. That's really where I think my medicine lies for cultivating and learning that patience. This was after graduate school, I started delving into a yoga practice. Like I said, I tried hot yoga, Kundalini yoga.
Adia Gooden (31:02.55)
Hmm
Adia Gooden (31:06.786)
Hmm
Dr. Rebecca (31:24.267)
a song, like any, if it had yoga in the name, I was like, I'll try it. I'm, I'm on board. And I always felt like a very welcome guests, like communities were really warm. Everyone was really kind. The movements and the, you know, sequences felt good to me. I've always left feeling recharged. But when I practiced Kemetic yoga for the first time, I felt at home. I felt
Adia Gooden (31:28.686)
Hehehe
Adia Gooden (31:35.062)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (31:51.181)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (31:52.275)
it was a distinct, and I have goosebumps now saying it, it felt different to me. And so it's the only style that I've ever done a teacher training in. It's the only style I'm interested in teaching because of that impact that it had on me. And I should also mention that I learned, I did my certification training in Egypt. So seeing all of these things,
Adia Gooden (32:18.027)
Hmm
Dr. Rebecca (32:21.863)
in real life, in the moment, feeling the energy of the space and the temples and the Nile and you know all of these pieces where our ancestors were felt very much impactful and I, what you were saying earlier about like this miracle of life, I felt like there was a special gift in this practice that someone was happy that I had
Adia Gooden (32:28.034)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (32:48.718)
Hmm. I love that. Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (32:51.571)
Yes, here she is. She's finally doing it. So and I can access that anytime.
Adia Gooden (33:00.514)
Hmm. That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. It definitely makes me feel like, Oh, maybe I want to see if I can try a class. Cause I have tried, you know, a few different types of yoga, not all the types, but they does, there's something about like that, that experience of being in that slow movement, which is so counter to our culture. I think in the U S in particular.
Dr. Rebecca (33:26.916)
Yes.
Adia Gooden (33:29.218)
that seems like it could be really, really powerful. And I can see how that practice could sort of heal some things and sort of get you out of the mode of sort of perfectionism, get you out of mode of rushing and being busy and getting things done and all of those pieces.
Dr. Rebecca (33:49.891)
Yeah, I think it's really countercultural because, you know, the capitalism or the patriarchy have like made us so focused on outcomes. What is produced? What is the final result? Where are we going to end up with this? And when you focus on the, just the journey of getting there without being that hyper focused on the outcome.
That's really where a lot of life is happening, right? The outcomes are going to come. Like there will be a result, you know, no matter what. But if you get there and you missed all of the things that happened in between because you weren't paying attention, I mean, that's a big chunk of life.
Adia Gooden (34:25.814)
Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (34:32.971)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (34:38.978)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a big chunk. I mean, you miss, you kind of miss life. And I think what happens is like, you know, we were both talking about sort of the rush through graduate school. I think I had a big disappointment when I realized that, you know, getting my PhD wasn't gonna make me feel worthy. And I do think that because I was able to slow down,
Dr. Rebecca (34:45.203)
Yeah.
Adia Gooden (35:05.57)
there were parts of grad school that I did actually enjoy. Right, like I did actually enjoy the clinical work that I was doing and the research I was doing and the consultation that I got to do. And so because I was, you know, I still wasn't going as slow as I probably could have, but because I sort of slowed down that process, like was also part of it for me and I could enjoy it. And I think that's one of the things I did love about doing therapy is like, it is a,
very process oriented endeavor, right? And I think it'll be interesting to see how that maybe shifts and changes as the therapy, the world of therapy changes and people want more outcomes focused. But at its core, therapy is about sort of sitting with someone or people and like, how do you show up in the space? How do you create space? How do you hold space? How do you, or like, what is happening in the moment in the room?
Right? Like is this huge part of therapy and one of the things that I think makes it so special because it is very different than how we operate and engage in so many other aspects of our lives.
Dr. Rebecca (36:18.611)
100%. I would struggle if I weren't practicing therapy that way for that very reason, because I think I've seen so many insights happen, triumphs happen in those spaces where we don't know, we don't have a specific goal in mind. The goal is to be in the space together.
of therapists and client and see what happens, witness what's happening in the moment live. Yeah, there are very few spaces in our world where we can do that. And how protective that time is too, that we can't always be in that mode either, right? Like no one can live their lives constantly present and not planning and you know.
Adia Gooden (36:51.459)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (37:06.399)
I'm sorry.
Dr. Rebecca (37:15.203)
But to protect that time within the therapy space, I think is such a valuable thing. I mean, this is also why I often say to people that this question about whether you need therapy really is so focused on the outcome. When I think the better question is like, can you benefit from a space like that? Anybody can.
Adia Gooden (37:32.906)
Mmm.
Adia Gooden (37:40.83)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (37:43.039)
benefit from a space that's, you know, not so pressing.
Adia Gooden (37:47.506)
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I totally agree with that. And I think the other thought that I have is, you know, one of the things I talk about on this podcast intermittently is like...
self-worth is really connected to how you be more than what you do. And I was sort of thinking about you talking about Kameda yoga being connected to like energy centers of the body and how energy flows through you. And I think that when we can be in that being mode, in that open mode, in that sort of that space where we're present, where we're attending to the process and what's here,
That is often when deep insights or creativity or things that we may not have been able to like force and figure out come to us and through us. And I think that's true whether you're talking about therapy or you're talking about being an artist, being a, like being any sort of profession. And so I think for those of you listening, you don't have to be a therapist to create this type of thing. And you also, therapy is really powerful
therapy isn't the only place where you could sort of create this space of being present, tuning in, opening to the possibilities, the sort of miraculous insights and wisdom that just sometimes come to us. I think that can benefit us in any aspect of our lives. And I think that when we're in the mode of proving ourselves or needing it to be perfect or because it can
connection to both of those things is control, right? Control is usually tight, is usually like, I've contained it, controlled it, right? And that often limits our openness and availability to, you know, like miraculous things happening, miraculous things coming through us, showing up. And so I know this is a little abstract, but I think my point is that really there are so many gifts in being present in
Adia Gooden (39:58.342)
letting go of the perfectionism in allowing ourselves to be and see what shows up versus forcing and being so focused on the outcome like you're saying that we're sort of rushing past the space where we might really get a deep insight or a beautiful experience or whatever it is.
Dr. Rebecca (40:20.599)
Yeah, I would say too, like for folks where that feels like really far away, you know, where it's like, I don't know if I've ever experienced that before, or I'm not really sure how I would get myself into the space of openness. I think a willingness to look for it is going to go very, very far, right? Because it's not...
Adia Gooden (40:27.67)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (40:41.354)
Mmm.
Dr. Rebecca (40:48.203)
Like even in the therapy space, like this is not something that happens every session. It's not something that like, is like a switch that you can turn on and off, right? There's, there are circumstances sometimes that need to be in place for that to happen, but it's definitely not going to happen if you're not open to it or if you're not looking for it, or if the belief that being perfect is not something you want to let go.
Adia Gooden (41:06.619)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (41:15.63)
Hmm
Dr. Rebecca (41:16.811)
Right, so if you want to let it go, then there's a chance, right, that you would see opportunities for that. So it really does start with like wanting to.
Adia Gooden (41:27.722)
I love that and sort of looking for opportunities. I know, you know, one of the things we messaged about is like new motherhood and this sort of like full life experience. And I think, you know, you could approach motherhood as like an exercise in perfectionism. You should look like the perfect mom. You should do all these things. Your baby should always look perfect. Blah, blah, which like, woo.
Dr. Rebecca (41:37.327)
Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (41:54.062)
Like that's a rough way to go about it, right? You could also, and I think this has been my intention, I have not done it perfectly, but I have been leaning into the invitation, right? Is like an invitation to slow down, an invitation to be present, an invitation to like really soak in the joyful moments where you're just like looking into your baby's eyes or their smile, just these little things.
that happened, right? And to just really allow those and soak them in. And I think that has been a really, you know, it's like a life learning experience of like shifting away from the productive, the control and into the being and the allowing and the moving with whatever happens to come up.
Dr. Rebecca (42:45.347)
Absolutely. I mean, you say, we could approach it with this perfectionistic goal. I am, I feel like parenting and perfectionism are deeply incompatible. Like it's just not, that's not a thing. I feel like it's way more possible with this other stuff, like work or, you know, with...
Adia Gooden (43:11.539)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (43:14.763)
With this, I feel very much like, no, don't even try. Because it's just not going to be perfect, thank goodness. I think we also have, we know a lot about how important it is for human development for things not to be perfect. So our babies need us to not be perfect, that's what they need.
Adia Gooden (43:21.289)
Hehehehe
Adia Gooden (43:37.654)
Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (43:42.946)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (43:45.107)
And I try to remind myself of that often too. And I think it's also motherhood has this like this new identity. And it's been a while since I've acquired a new identity, right? And so I see the traps for stepping into like wanting to be perfect. I'm like, oh no, not going down that route. And then sometimes how I avoid the trap is a little clumsy, you know, or I'm, you know, not
Adia Gooden (43:55.426)
Hmm.
Adia Gooden (44:00.426)
Hmm
Adia Gooden (44:04.715)
Ha ha!
Adia Gooden (44:09.954)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (44:13.539)
doing things. I was like, well, that didn't really work out. But at least I didn't stuff in the trap. You know, at least I didn't try to force things to be a certain way. So I'm, yeah, I think it's, I feel like it's really a gift to be given a new identity at a point where I'm an adult, you know. And there are definitely ways where I feel like a teenager again, because I'm not really sure who I am.
Adia Gooden (44:31.31)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (44:39.138)
Hmm.
Dr. Rebecca (44:43.123)
I don't know what I'm doing a lot of times. But it's like a teenager experience, but with all the benefits of knowing that it's okay. And I didn't know that when I was a teenager.
Adia Gooden (44:45.166)
Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (44:55.322)
Mm-hmm the wisdom. Mm-hmm. Right and the teenager it's like fraught Right and also your brain isn't developed And all the hormones, but yes an adult it's like, oh, I'm fumbling this. Okay
Dr. Rebecca (45:02.667)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Dr. Rebecca (45:11.113)
Exactly.
Adia Gooden (45:11.722)
What does it look like to pick up the ball? All right, let's try that, run that playback. Let's try it again, because that wasn't exactly what I hoped for. But I agree. I mean, I think the traps are often like, I think when I think about social media, it's like showing these perfect pictures and this perfect image and your baby shouldn't cry and you shouldn't have spit up on your shirt and like all of those things. And I think I agree with you that like our-
Dr. Rebecca (45:15.992)
Yeah.
Adia Gooden (45:37.77)
Kids need us not to be perfect and we need they need it to be okay with us for them not to be perfect
Dr. Rebecca (45:46.219)
Oh, yes. Yes.
Adia Gooden (45:46.866)
you know, because I think, you know, like for them to mess up, for them to be in the messy middle. And I think the more we can give ourselves space for imperfection, for that messiness, for our humanity, the better we are able to give that space to our kids, to be fully human, to explore, to mess up, to do all of those things. And that's really what will help them to be humans who
can figure out what helps them to cultivate joy and lean into it and not have that inner critic. And, you know, like some of those things that I think so many of us like ended up with that they are probably less likely to do that if we're not putting that same criticism on ourselves and not putting it on them.
Dr. Rebecca (46:34.103)
100%, everything you said. And one of the traps that I've noticed is that all of these things about taking care of myself, not being perfect, giving myself grace, it's okay if that's also just for me. That it's okay, you know, I think we, now because this is such an important role to us, as it, you know, of course it is, but.
Adia Gooden (46:50.178)
Hmm
Adia Gooden (46:56.264)
Mmhmm.
Dr. Rebecca (47:01.031)
I think a lot of messaging is like, go take care of yourself, mama, so that you can be there for your baby. And I just really wanna put a period behind that first part of the statement, right? Like, go take care of yourself, mama. That's it. Like, it doesn't have to be for another person. This invitation to do it for another person, even though it's your baby, is still taking away from you.
Adia Gooden (47:03.406)
Mmm.
Adia Gooden (47:13.651)
Yes, I love that.
Adia Gooden (47:24.046)
Mm-hmm.
Adia Gooden (47:28.974)
Hmm. I love that. I love that. Let's end on that note. Um, I am grateful to you for coming and sharing your wisdom and making the time. And I'm sure that people are going to want to connect with you further. So will you let people know where they can find you, how they can connect with you.
Dr. Rebecca (47:35.155)
Okay.
Dr. Rebecca (47:50.863)
Absolutely. Thank you for the conversation. Folks can find me on Instagram at grounded.wellness.living. I also send out a newsletter. People are welcome to sign up with that at the website groundedwellnessllc.com. And if these things are all resonating, I'm also planning a free virtual event at the end of the year.
But if you're signed up for the newsletter, then you won't miss it. So I would say go that route.
Adia Gooden (48:23.214)
Awesome, that's perfect. That's awesome. And this episode is airing sometime close to the end of the year. So we'll make sure that all of these things are linked in the show notes, including that end of the year event so that hopefully that timing works out and people can sign up for that. So thank you again. You all be sure to reach out and follow Dr. Rebecca. Get on our email list. Her emails are really wonderful. And thank you again for sharing your time.
Dr. Rebecca (48:32.547)
Oh good.
Dr. Rebecca (48:54.095)
Thank you so much for having me.[cheerful music starts]
Dr. Adia Gooden [00:46:48] Thanks for joining me this week on the Unconditionally Worthy Podcast. Make sure to visit my website, dradiagooden.com and subscribe to the show on iTunes so you'll never miss an episode. You can also follow me on social media at Dr. Adia Gooden. If you loved the show, please leave a review on iTunes so we can continue to bring you amazing episodes. Lastly, if you found this episode helpful and know someone who might benefit from hearing it, please share it. Thanks for listening and see you next episode.
[cheerful music ends]
This episode was produced by Crys & Tiana and the music is by Wataboi.
Cali by Wataboi https://soundcloud.com/wataboi
Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0
Music promoted by FDL Music https://youtu.be/ZdQI7WQWi_g
So many of us struggle with perfectionism. Women in particular are socialized to believe that being perfect makes us worthy.
If you’re anything like me, you’ve spent years trying to be perfect in all the ways you could think of (academically, professionally, in friendships, in romantic relationships, etc.). After pursuing perfectionism for long enough we are left exhausted and disconnected from the things that used to bring joy into our life.
I want to encourage you, one recovering perfectionist to another, that there is another way. That’s exactly what my guest on this episode of the Unconditionally Worthy podcast and I are talking about. I’m joined by Dr. Rebecca Hubbard a licensed clinical psychologist, Kemetic Yoga instructor, former student athlete, and recovering perfectionist.
Listen in as Dr. Rebecca shares about her own self-worth journey, how she is releasing perfectionism and how both of us are avoiding the traps of pursuing perfection as new moms.
The problem with perfectionism
Perfectionism is dehumanizing
During this episode, Dr. Rebecca made a powerful point that striving for perfection is dehumanizing. The reality is that perfection is unattainable and when we are constantly striving for perfection we often overwork ourselves and ignore our normal human needs for rest, connection, and nourishment. Additionally, the richness and miracle of life is in the messy middle. It can be an incredible relief to let go of striving for perfection and allow ourselves to live fully human, messy, miraculous lives.
Perfectionism robs us of the joy we could experience
Imagine your whole life was a straight and narrow, perfectly paved concrete path. At first it might be nice but eventually it would get boring. You’d probably start to long for a hike up a beautiful mountain. Yes, your hiking boots might get a bit dirty and you might feel challenged physically at times but you would also see so much beauty, you would smell the trees and hear the birds, you’d see wildflowers; it would be a rich experience. Consider your life as a metaphorical hike; yes it can be hard when we are wading through the messy middle of life and it will be so much more interesting and beautiful when it’s not “perfect.”
Tips for releasing perfectionism:
Make space for the imperfect. In the episode, Dr. Rebecca shares that her therapist has encouraged her to make space for things that don’t go as she hoped and not need to do anything about it. Dr. Rebecca and I talk about how motherhood has been a big invitation to allow things to be imperfect because there’s really no way to do motherhood perfectly and trying would be incredibly stressful and frustrating.
Lean into self-trust. In order to wade through the messy middle of life we have to trust ourselves and trust life. Perfectionism is often counter to self-trust because it makes us feel like the only thing we can trust is perfection and not our full human selves. Trust can also look like faith in something bigger than yourself that will bring things together in your life beyond your individual effort.
Slow down. Our current culture pushes us to move constantly and to be impatient with life and how it unfolds imperfectly. One of the ways that we can release perfectionism is by slowing down and cultivating patience. Dr. Rebecca shares how Kemetic Yoga, which she teaches, has helped her to embody this patience and slowness and release perfectionism in her life.
Focus more on the process than the outcome. Perfectionism is all about the outcome. In our striving for perfection we often miss the process and the experience of whatever we are doing or working towards; in other words, we miss life. Focusing your attention on the process of what you are working towards or experiencing can be a powerful way to release perfectionism and to allow yourself to soak in the richness of life. Dr. Rebecca makes the point that therapy is a transformative space that helps us to focus on the process more than the outcome.
Be sure to listen to the full episode to hear more about how Dr. Rebecca and I have struggled with perfectionism, learned to lean into the messy middle, and how motherhood has been a big invitation into imperfection for both of us.
Relevant Resources:
Sign up for Dr. Rebecca’s Newsletter
Dr. Adia’s Free E-Book: 4 Practices to Connect with Your Unconditional Self-Worth
About Dr. Rebecca Hubbard:
Dr. Rebecca Hubbard is a licensed clinical psychologist, Kemetic Yoga instructor, former student athlete, and recovering perfectionist. She has been on her own wellness journey since she was a teenager and uses her personal experience and professional training to co-create spaces for healing and growth in her Chicago-based private practice.
To connect further with Dr. Rebecca Hubbard:
Connect with her on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/grounded.wellness.living/
Check out her website: www.groundedwellnessllc.com
To connect further with me:
Follow me on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dradiagooden
Connect with me on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adiagooden/
Subscribe to my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCURnbYiU8WTj_2RlMIyER0w
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